During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
From what I've been hearing being born a sociopath pretty much ruins your chances of facing legitimate tragedy, especially since it can't effect you in anyway, can people become sociopaths or is it only in birth?
edited 15th Feb '16 10:54:21 PM by Mediawatcher
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, I think Gravity Falls still falls under the 1-week window.
Eh, maybe I'll see Fullmetal Alchemist: The Conqueror of Shamballa and see myself if Dietlinde counts.
@Mediawatcher: Sociopaths can be made by childhood trauma. They also do have emotions, just not empathy for other humans note . And sociopaths are not bad people by definition, most operate on a form of utilitarian ethics.
You know what's worse than Lex Luthor stealing cake? Lex Luthor stealing Superman's peanut butter and threatening him with kryptonite if he doesn't give him his recipe. The fiend.
Also if parody examples were allowed and it counted as the people dying I might suggest Captain Planet from the Funny or Die skit. After being summoned he turns everyone in the world including Kwami into a "fuckin tree" for the hell of it. I'm pretty sure if this wasn't a parody this would probably be pretty heinous as CP shows no remorse for his actions and tries to do the same to the rest of the Planeteers. Why can't parody examples exist? We have Malakite from a TGWTG special from a website which is primarily known for comedy and even themes like suicide, rape, etc are played for laughs. We also have an example from the wonderful movie Manos. So why can't parody examples exist from lighter works like South Park and The Simpsons? Granted SP does everything with Dead Baby comedy but The Simpsons can do drama surprisingly well and if most of the characters didn't have redeeming qualities I might have suggested some in the past.
Manos is not a parody or a comedy. It's terrible, but meant to be taken seriously unlike your other examples, which is why it counts.
Malachite, despite being from a comedy, is himself played seriously which is why it counts.
An example from South Park, The Simpsons or any other comedy could count as well if they fit the other criteria. Which is unlikely in the case of South Park because one of the main characters is played for laughs despite trying to commit genocide.
I wasn't seriously proposing them. The Superman peanut butter was a follow up to the joke Lex Luthor effortpost that was on here a few pages back. As for the Captain Planet, yeah I could tell it was something you couldn't take seriously given the creator was called Funny or Die. But I was using them as examples because I wasn't going to bring up Dark Stanley again when pretty much every Simpsons example up to this point (including Russ Cargill) has been discussed and downvoted.
Little question; was novelization!Nome King resolved? He got a writeup and everything and I think the votes leaned to the majority, but I don't know if he was ultimately dropped or submitted.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm not sure if he got enough votes.
As for Simpsons, there could conceivably be a contender. Same with Family Guy (Jeff, despite being a Knight of Cerebus, wasn't heinous enough, and anyone who was bad enough had a disqualifying factor).
Lizzid people!
Should I bring him back up? If anything, the previous discussion got some things wrong. Like I mentioned before, Book!Nome King is never played for sympathy, because he escaped from stone; rather, the novel clearly states that it would be a bad thing if he were to become fully human. That, and on the jewels issue, what wasn't brought up was that the Book!Nome King was a liar; he knew that the Scarecrow wasn't around when the jewels were taken, and, Dorothy actually pointed out that he had so many jewels that it wouldn't matter much if a few were taken. Here are some quotes from the book:
"All the metals in the world, and all the precious stones as well, are made here in my underground dominions.....all made by Nomes for my amusement. So imagine how I feel when I find that someone—from the world above—has dug down and found my secret hiding places and removed my stored treasures. As for the emeralds in the Emerald City, all those emeralds really belonged to me! I was just taking back what was rightfully mine to begin with!
Dorothy: You have so much....
Nome King: Beg pardon?
Dorothy: You have so much!
Nome King: That is not the point; the point is that I am not a thief. I am an honest man.
Your friend [Scarecrow] is the thief...I took him prisoner and I will keep him here as a lesson to anyone who would steal from me in the future!
Really, all of these quotes just prove that the NK is a miser with his possessions. He values his jewels over the people who had manufactured them in the first place. Him getting enraged that his jewels were being used by other people is a disqualifying quality either.
As I had mentioned before, while Film!Nome King had sympathetic moments, the novel version of him didn't; he is only portrayed as a power hungry tyrant who wanted to increase what power that he had. In the book, his Pet the Dog moments with Dorothy are fabricated just so that he could further thrust the knife into Dorothy. In one part of the book, he even threatens to have Dorothy get thrown into a furnace for her insolence.
A majority of the users either abstained from voting for him, or either downvoted or upvoted him. I don't really mind if he doesn't make the cut; I do mind, however, if he were downvoted on entirely fabricated grounds. Here's the page where I brought him up, though I don't think nothing would change much [1].
edited 16th Feb '16 5:07:59 AM by AustinDR
Shows like The Simpsons, Family Guy, and South Park COULD potentially have this trope, but it's super unlikely for two reasons: 1: Most of the villains on those shows are played for comedy. 2: The 'cough' 'cough' "heroes" in those shows have committed such atrocities that even the villains who ARE taken seriously have trouble holding a candle to them. For example, if you really think about it, it's kind of hard to believe that in Screams of silence, Quagmire is the hero and Jeff is the villain, I mean, Quagmire is a Serial Rapist pedophile who raped Marge and killed the entire Simpsons family, including baby Maggie. Meanwhile, Jeff is a domestic abuser. Which sounds worse to you? Eric Cartman from South Park is a racist, anti semitic, kid with probably a lot more predijeses I'm forgetting about, who once got two people killed and fed them to their son. on another occasion, he caused Kyle to get infected with AIDS. Then there's the time he teamed up with Cithulu, the time he tried to commit genocide on the Jews, yada yada yada. And The Simpsons... Well, they probably have the least bad main characters, but the show honestly seems too lighthearted. I think Russ Cargill could have counted if he was not a WIE, but he is. I don't know, I don't follow the show really, what's the worst thing a character has done on it?
jjj
By the way, I have seen some lets plays, and I would like to say that Rhade from Ogre Battle 64 does not count. He's a standard Jerkass villain. Really, just reading his entry and comparing it to the entries of the other two candidates should tell you he does not stand out:
- Complete Monster: Death Master Nybbas Obderhode is a completely fucked up person. When his son Debordes was executed by Barbatos for rebelling, Nybbas made his corpse a guinea pig for his necromancy research, turning him into a walking corpse. While he serves Barbatos, he couldn't care less on who wins just so long he can continue his research about necromancy, with no regards of souls of the dead or living. No wonder his priestly daughter Orias hate him so much... And if you think he's not THAT bad... then his Moral Event Horizon would be him zombifying of Guildus in Neutral route. And if you go to the other route, he zombifies Leonard and Zaebos]]. The Chaotic route of the PSP remake ramps this Up To Eleven with his treatment to his daughter Cressida. Of most Tactics Ogre villains... Nybbas tops in the 'evil' department.
- Cardinal Barbatos orders the ethnic cleansing of Walsta/Walister and institutes concentration camps such as Baramus / forced slave labor camps such as Balmamusa If that wasn't really the cinch of it, Jenounes' backstory also cements him as one. He ordered the massacre of Oxyones' village on Jenounes' squadron on the claim that they were cultists, but in truth they just stored anti-Barbatos movement and overall innocent. And then there's the fact that he executed Debordes just because he's part of anti-Barbatos movement, enabling Nybbas to do his way with him. And he's still lightweight compared to Nybbas...
- Complete Monster: Rhade. Where do you even begin with this guy? All the other villains in the story claim to do their deeds for the good of the kingdom/empire. But this guy does all he does because he can. From the first moment Magnus meets him, even though they're on the same side he condescends him constantly, despite Magnus having saved his life earlier (Rhade actually complained about Magnus not being fast enough), and then kills an unarmed old man as soon as he leaves the room. Then he punches you out when you try to defend a rebel leader which begins the downfall of Yumil as Rhade's the one who shows him only power can change things. THEN he forces slaves from the west to be drafted into the war by holding their own families hostage, and saying that it's YOUR fault for dragging them into the war! Quite frankly, it feels awesome when you finally get to stick a sword in his gullet (Or see it, depending on your alignment).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, that takes care of that.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Klavice, as of this point, I'm of the impression you should probably stop proposing examples for a good long while. Every single one of the ones you've done recently have been non-keeps that should be recognized at a single glance, or you've been incredibly deceptive as to redeeming qualities.
edited 16th Feb '16 7:04:40 AM by Lightysnake
It's been 2 weeks since the DVD release of Batman: Bad Blood, so now I'm going to effort post its Big Bad like I said I would. Spoilers below.
Who is Talia al Ghul?
Following the death of her father Ra's al Ghul and the defeat of Deathstorke the Terminator in Son of Batman, Talia al Ghul is the new leader of the League of Assassins come this film. She's also the mother of both this Batman continuity's second Robin, Damien Wayne, and Damien's clone, The Heretic.
What does she do?
- She assembles a team of C-list villains (Electrocutioner, Blockbuster, Firefly, Killer Moth, Hellhound, Onyx, Tusk, Calculator, and Mad Hatter) lead by The Dragon Heretic in a plan to brainwash a number of world leaders at a tech summit held by Bruce Wayne with the use of advanced earpieces being distributed to the attendees. This would make them loyal to the League of Assassins and increase its level of global influence.
- Mad Hatter is under threat of death by exploding collar. Should he fail to cooperate, he'll die.
- The plan starts with Talia ordering Heretic to kidnap Bruce Wayne (out as Batman) during the cold opening, intending to turn him into her mind-controlled slave for . They have Bruce Wayne captured and Mad Hatter is slowly brainwashing him with a machine projecting laser like beams into his eyes and brain causing him to experience nightmarish visions of his parents and friends as well as several bats attacking him.
- While this is going on, Heretic and his henchmen attack Wayne Enterprises in order to steal some of the Wayne tech they need for Talia's plan. Lucius Fox is non-fatally stabbed and hospitalized in this attack.
- Some time later in the movie, The Heretic is reveled as Damien's clone, created by a genetics program created by Ra's al Ghul and the League of Assassins, using Damian's DNA to genetically engineer a perfect soldier with accelerated growth and development, but he was the only subject of the program to survive with Mad Hatter giving him an actual mind and consciousness. Due to his feeling of not being a real person, he wishes to have Damian's memories and personality implanted within his own brain with the mind programming machine being used on Bruce, but Talia arrives and then shoots Heretic dead for his disobeying her orders to leave Damian out of the conflict.
- She has Batwoman's surrogate father brainwashed and sent to assassinate her at her home. It fails.
- Near the end of the movie, Talia's plan is set into motion. A fully brainwashed Bruce Wayne starts the tech summit and aids in brainwashing the world leaders gathered. As the brainwashing is taking place, Nightwing, Robin, Batwoman, Alfred, and Batwing arrive and fight Talia and her henchmen. Bruce is made to fight Nightwing and defeats him. Talia then orders him to shoot Grayson and Damian dead, but Bruce, with the help of Grayson's pleas, resists the effects of the mind control and disobeys her. Incensed, Talia escapes into her auto pilot vessel only to be met by Onyx, a member of Heretic's team who attempts to murder her in revenge for the ruthless death of Heretic, causing the vessel to crash, resulting in both her and the latter's death.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
Yes she is. Talia is as bad as she can be, and is expanding her recourse to be even worse that her father or the Court of Owls from the previous film Batman vs. Robin. She is by far the worst villain in this continuity of Batman films.
Redeeming qualities?
Probably the only part that would make some pause, but I assure you she has none. She doesn't love Bruce, she only ever wanted to control him. She even raped him to conceive Damien for the cloning project. She also doesn't love Damien, saying she and her brainwashed Batman could always make more before ordering his death at Bruce's hand. She doesn't love the Heretic, in fact Talia somewhat played along with his desire to be loved by her by pretending to consider how he felt about being a clone before coldly executing him. She doesn't even care about Ra's. In Son of Batman she refuses to let Damien use the Lazarus Pit to save him from death with a really flimsy excuse as to why (Ra's body is burnt, but not so much so that the Pit couldn't save him).
Final Verdict?
She gets a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
from me.
edited 16th Feb '16 9:18:43 AM by VeryMelon
Lizzid people!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, several (attempted) murders, and (attempted) brainwashing? I'll give a slight due to the Mind Rape of Bruce, but I don't feel terrible strong about it.
Messenger from another dimension.
Talia
edited 16th Feb '16 8:01:00 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Wild Child
Talia, I guess.
Gonna mirror that, and here's a new effortpost at the same time:
The series is called The Braided Path, on the site as The Weavers of Saramyr after the series' first book, when a noblewoman named Kaiku is killed...and restored to life by her mysterious, immortal handmaiden Asara and gets thrown in a web of intrigue as the mysterious Weavers plot to take over the empire of Saramyr.
Now, the Weavers are a staunchly all-male, monastic sect who gain power to the 'Weave' (the fabric of reality) through their magical masks at the cost of physical degradation. The Weavers integrated themselves into the Saramyrian society, with each noble house having one. The issue is, the advantages the Weavers provide is a bit of a double edged sword as after Weaving, the Weavers are subject to a sort of mania that can only be satisfied in a way that varies Weaver to Weaver. Someof the go into a catatonic trance for a while, some of them sing, some paint a picture...some commit acts of rape, cannibalism, torture, murder...our subject, Kakre has a mania of skinning victims alive.
Who Is He?
Dragon Ascendant Lord Weaver Kakre is another Weaver in the first book, under the service of Weave Lord Vyrrch. As a warning as to how terrifying Kakre is, his mask is made of preserved human flesh. After Vyrrch's death, Kakre ascends to command the Order and puts into motion the ultimate plans: transforming the world into a barren, volcanic, mortal aspect of a god of destruction who wants to kill all the other gods and conquer existence.
What's He done?
Now, in the first book, Vyrrch and the Weavers' inner circle, consisting of Kakre, mastermind a coup within the Empire to overthrow Empress Anais and kill her child, the heir Lucia (who's an 'Aberrant,' a being born 'different' which the Weavers seek to wipe out...Aberrant 'defects' can manifest in a variety of ways with some being horrible monsters, others being immortal shapeshifters, others having gifts of prophecy). anyways, the coup goes off and the empress's husband assists in the violence and kills his wife, with the coup done for his own house and with his father becoming emperor. Vyrrch is killed and Kakre takes his place.
Kakre steps up the usual Weaver darkness with extra brutality on the rebels. Putting his plans into action, Kakre manipulates Blood-Emperor Mos in a rather nasty way. Mos's younger wife becomes Kakre's target as he use shis powers to manipulate Mos's dreams, slowly driving him mad and convincing him his wife is cheating on him until he beats her so violently she miscarries and apparently kills herself, which inspires her father and brother to rebel against Saramyr, creating a new war. When Mos realizes Kakre's played him, he makes it clear he's done taking Kakre's orders. Kakre responds by provoking worse carnage by unleashing monster Aberrations upon the populace and then agonizingly kills Mos with his power.
Kakre sends out the Aberrations to ravage just about everything possible and at the end of the final clash between his forces and their opposition, he taps further into the Weave than before to unleash the worst sort of monstrosities on them to annihilate everything he can before being stopped. Having spent himself, Kakre ends up crumbling to dust.
Redeeming Qualities?
No.
Mitigating Factors?
The Weaving Manias aren't even a mitigating thing. Both Vyrrch and Kakre are entirely comfortable with theirs and Kakre makes a little 'studio' where he displays the flayed skins he takes with a matter of pride. He even looks forward to skinning a victim when he's done Weaving and gleefully thinks she has 'such skin.' The only time he shows any regret is when his physical state is so decaying he can't complete the same 'artful' cuts like he used to.
While I'll grant all the Weavers are pretty much bastards, Kakre goes out of his way to commit the worst deeds otherwise and besides the whole 'omnicidal maniac' thing, Kakre sets up enough bloodshed, death and pettiness to qualify for this on his own with the plans he puts into motion himself.
Lizzid people!
Lord Weaver Kakre
Talia and Kakre
edited 16th Feb '16 8:13:02 AM by lrrose
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Kakre, I think, but:
- You say he's comfortable with his mania, but could that be because he has no other choice? Though it seems he doesn't just live with it, he likes it.
- Did Kakre know his manipulation of Mos would start a new war, or was that just a bonus?
- "Having spent himself, Kakre ends up crumbling to dust." Please tell me that's not as anti-climactic as it sounds.
Re Talia: Even though she doesn't have any redeeming qualities and sounds like the worst villain in the films, I still don't think she sounds heinous enough so I'll vote no.
Re Kankre: I'll vote yes on him since he likes his compulsion to skin people alive and it's not even related to his worst crimes.
SSM: That was ruled "too weird"? As if his actual appearance is so normal?![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
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