During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Canonically speaking, 47 is a bit...of an emotionless fellow, though he's only killed a few people who could be described as innocent. One was a reporter who was a witness and the others were a target (the former owner of a theme park where a faulty ride got a kid killed and an agent who got captured).
Um for the DCAU Scarecrows, I think I have a genuine Pet the Dog Moment.
In the episode Lock Up, at one point when Bolton's threatening the inmates, you can actually see him pushing Harley behind him in a protective manner, this is despite the fact it was established from the beginning he's terrified of Bolton.
Does that disqualify him?
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Still unsure then. Wade is way worse but I'm not sure I'm comfortable writing up anyone in a series where the protagonist partakes in Leave No Witnesses. I think I'll play it safe and abstain.
edited 7th Jul '15 6:22:30 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
This was actually a bit of an anomaly. 47's canonical style is to kill his target (literally all of whom except the aforementioned) without witnesses or being discovered, or without anyone even knowing he's there, with Make It Look Like an Accident in full effect.
In this instance, 47 was put into a death-like coma and woken up before he was cremated, the purpose being to draw out the masterminds of the conspiracy of the game to kill them. One of them had brought a reporter as well
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Eh, that doesn't make it much better in my view, unless the reporter knew his boss was evil. Still abstaining.
It is worth noting that the series is not quite as dark as you might expect of a franchise where the player character is an assassin killing mostly evil people. The series is filled with both black comedy and normal comedy. One mission in Blood Money had you killing a target at his son's birthday party while dressed as a literal clown. Even Absolution, the darkest game in the series, is filled to brim with over the top deaths such as killing a mad scientist by spiking his hair growth formula with flammable chemicals or beating The Dragon to death in a steel cage match while dressed as his masked opponent. Absolution even marks the point where 47 is at his most heroic. The levels with Wade are likely the darkest and most serious in the entire game and his wretched personality is not played for laughs.
edited 7th Jul '15 6:42:59 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Regarding Scarecrow's Freudian Excuse in the comics—it isn't just that he was bullied as a child. Crane was harassed and tormented from the time he was a kid right on up through college. It eventually reaches the point where he loses touch with reality and starts viewing anybody who tries to stop him from doing what he wants as part of the same pattern of victimization that's followed him all his life. Then he starts screwing around with the fear gas and loses most of his emotions period, save fear of Batman, who is, in his mind, just another of the bullies. It may not be as sympathetic as Two-Face, but it's a damn sight more than most people on the list get. How that translates over into various adaptations, I don't know, though I'm saying "no" on BTAS!Scarecrow for now.
That said I'll give a "yes" to Arkham!Scarecrow, because clearly the excuse isn't in play.
I'll give Eredin a "yes", sounds like a right bastard.
"Yes" to Pinhead, now that Barker's said he's done with him and has stripped away any apparent moral code he had.
Regarding SCP-106, this—"A fox may see his way out of a trap, but only a man will wait for his captors to look away to escape"—is crap. Seriously. I've seen footage of a Komodo dragon trying to sneak up on a man, only to "go to sleep" whenever the intended victim looks in its direction. "No" until given a reason to change my mind.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
By the way, a final thought on Doflamingo... in order to take him down, the Straw Hats forge alliances with a number of side characters in town for a tournament hosted by Doffy, most of whom, when you strip away Protagonist-Centered Morality, are honestly pretty horrible themselves. They include...
- A notorious war criminal wanted for chopping the heads off dozens of people.
- An infamous Serial Killer with a Split Personality.
- A pair of gleeful Mad Bombers.
- An explorer said to have perpetrated a massacre (though no details are given).
- The heads of what seems to be a Fantasy Counterpart of the Chinese Mob.
None of these guys are as bad as Doffy, obviously, but if they had his resources? I'm not too unsure they wouldn't be, to be honest.
edited 7th Jul '15 7:36:56 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
This has come up from you three separate times, HT. This is a huge case of The Pirates That Don't Do Anything as none of them get up to any evil activities and all of them are considerably heroic on screen.
No, it doesn't affect the standard as Doffy is insanely worse. Not a singleone of those guys is even as bad as...hell, as Charloss. Or Kuro. Or even Don Krieg.
edited 7th Jul '15 7:42:53 PM by Lightysnake
@MGD 107- Forgot about that. That would definitely be a Pet the Dog moment I would think, especially because Crane's dominant trait is being a coward who preys on the fears of others. His actually protecting someone is quite striking.
As is the norm with other BTAS villains (see also Poison Ivy), Crane basically only includes his fellow inmates in his "monkeysphere", which is why he has cute scenes in that setting but is involved in murderous plans when it comes to everyone else.
The Joker is also involved in those type of humorous scenes, but the difference is that he doesn't have any friendships and he's antagonistic (just a more lighthearted antagonism than usual).
edited 7th Jul '15 7:43:15 PM by Hodor2
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I honestly forgot I brought this up before! Sorry. 
edited 7th Jul '15 7:45:59 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
- Complete Monster: Shin is this trope to a tee: Targeting children for the purpose of kidnapping or attacking them, sacrificing his own offspring just to protect or preserve himself, wanting to drag the entire world into never-ending war for the sake of "evolution", willing to murder anyone who gets in his way, and so on.
Found this under Naruto Gaiden.
Shin fails the heinous standard big time.
I figured as much. I deleted it.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Speaking of, are we ready to decide on Orochimaru or is there more stuff forthcoming?
edited 7th Jul '15 8:13:26 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
The only other thing upcoming is boruto the movie, I believe. Yeah, we can discuss him.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I didn't follow the Gaiden but I understand Oro basically became Ninja Hannibal Lecter?
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Well, he's living in his old hideout, continuing experiments with Konoha not trusting him and assigning Yamato to watch over him. He assists the good guys because the Gaiden's villain is an experiment of his that goes rogue and he wants the guy eliminated.
Kabuto, however, is flat out redeemed. He's even the orphanage's headmaster.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
They're letting these people near children?
I've said it before, but I never thought I'd see a series whose villains were too redeemable...
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
orochimaru isn't anywhere near kids. Kabuto, however is a peaceful orphanage director. Remember it's been like 10 years.
Orochimaru, on the other hands...umm...it's weird. He does literally nothing to be redeeming except that he's...quirky and Affably Evil and gets a few sarcastic jokes, but his help to the heroes is entirely due to wanting a rogue experiment dead.
The Orochimaru situation just gets more bizarre by the day. If he's not sorry and hasn't actually changed though, I see little reason to cut him. Just chalk him up as a Retired Monster and lets move on.
I might lean to cut at this point. Unlike Mayuri, who at least indulges into absolute evil when he can, Orochimaru...
Orochimaru hasn't shown enough change for me to vote for cutting.
I'll make a broader post soon.
No on DCAU!Scarecrow.
I'll give my two cents on Arkham!Scarecrow once I've finished watching the walkthrough.
edited 7th Jul '15 6:15:11 PM by TVRulezAgain