Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

There's a difference between Played for Laughs and laughing at a villian. IT from Stephen Kings IT still does horrific things to children. That Tim Curry is playing him is irrelevant.

Anyways, for Pokémon, I'm still not sure about whether to also include Charon from the Diamond and Pearl adventures would qualify. Only saw one post relating to him from page 128 onwards, and that was just a leaning.

edited 20th Sep '12 9:46:53 PM by EarlOfSandvich

Hey guys,I just deleted Pokémon Black and White's Complete Monster entry. I didn't deleted Pokémon Black 2 and White 2's Complete Monster entry,through.

Reason: Simple, it's too damn long just to describe how evil one villain is. At least Dragon Ball did describe individuals villains. As you may wondering why I didn't delete Pokémon Black 2 and White 2 Complete Monster's entry, this is because it's much shorter.

edited 21st Sep '12 4:42:31 AM by flamemario12

Generally, being overly long is a reason to trim down an entry, not to delete it.

That said, multiple people have stated that the entry for Pokemon Black And White needed to be deleted for not fitting the trope.

Ugh, I'm just getting over a nasty cold. Sorry I haven't been around to help out; let's try to get things back on track.

I deleted Ms. Hattie and the Pyro.

We have a few more Elder Scrolls villains to talk about.

Umaril the Unfettered and Wolf Queen Potema Septim. Both are cases of Offstage Villainy. All we actually see them do is try to take over the mortal plane. Umaril's servants do destroy there churches and almost destroy a third, but that's about it. In fact, I'm questioning Mannimarco's status as well. He's the Big Bad of Daggerfall, but suffers a serious case of Villain Decay in Oblivion. I never played The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, so I need someone who has to pitch in.

Okay, let's try to get back in the saddle with more on Sandbox.Video Game Monsters. Of course, someone since alphabetized examples, so I'm restarting from the beginning, and hopefully not duplicating myself.

For Old King of Armored Core 4A: I would end it with the "That's 100 million dead for the record." line. Beyond that is discussing player actions, which is a no-no (especially since the player is forced into it).

Tyrone King of Dead Rising 2 needs expansion, because he deliberately causes the zombie outbreak of the second game, which he knows will kill hundreds, if not thousands, purely for profit. I would add the following line, spoilered: He's also the one responsible for creating the outbreak in the second game, in order to make more of the anti-zombification drug Zombrex, purely for profit.

Mundus of Devil May Cry should be cut - a good chunk of those actions (like killing Dante's mother) are offscreen, he goes to kill Trish after she betrays him, and his actions really don't rise beyond Generic Doomsday Villain.

Oh, to go with the point I made before about Olympia from Etrian Odyssey 3, I just read the character page - she's apparently a robot and following her programming in addition to everything else. Cut.

Apparently, I was wrong, Rugal of King Of Fighters does do much of that onscreen. He can stay.

In the Shin Megami Tensei examples, I think we need more detail on the Four Seraphs, because I'm not sure if they're evil or just think that it's the best for everyone. Bat needs expansion because it seems that much of it is relying on players having played the game. Plus, is he that bad compared to YHVH? Sheffield also needs clarification, because I'm not sure if he did that on purpose or by accident. I'm also not sure if Mastema is truly evil or just a Well-Intentioned Extremist. All in all, I think the entire entry may need to be cut to force someone to write a much better entry that's less reliant on experience with the series.

Clockwerk of Sly Cooper doesn't actually describe any in-game evil that he tries beyond attempting to kill the main character. I vote cut.

The entire Soul Nomad And The World Eaters section should be cut. Much of it describes a player's choice, which doesn't count. And the section on King Strauss VIII admist that he isn't the most heinous thing in the game. All should be removed.

For Spyro examples, the Malefor entry should be consolidated to one bullet, and the "All things considered..." line should be cut, since that's just conjecture. I would cut the Sorceress from Year Of The Dragon for not being as heinous as Malefor.

I would cut the line about M. Bison of Street Fighter killing T. Hawk's people, as that's offscreen. However, attempting to drain everyone's power to Take Over the World, making people into loyal servants via Mind Rape, and being the one character willing to murder for fun does have him qualify. I'm also inclined to cut Oni, since he's more The Sociopath and isn't out to do the level of evil that Bison is. I'd use the following instead:

• A power-hungry psycho soldier sometimes referred as "Dictator", M. Bison/Vega from the Street Fighter series will do anything he can to conquer the entire world by manipulating or killing the Street Fighters. He in particular will use the strongest fighters as a power source to fuel his world-conquering ambitions, and he kidnaps and hypnotizes innocent people to become his loyal servants and to fight on his side. He's also the one character willing to murder because he enjoys it, as opposed to simply refusing to hold back in a fight.

That's what I have for now.

The Sorceress and Malefor exist in separate continuities, and Malefor's universe is much darker. The Sorceress is a monster by the standards of her Lighter and Softer universe.

I'll look back in the discussion and likely act upon the brought-up entries on the sandbox tomorrow, unless there's further discussion.

Sorceress flat out planned to kill children when by her own admission the spell didn't even require them dying. She just "didn't want them squirming when I cut their wings off". That's pretty fucked up

So for a ritual that involves cutting people's wings off, which would undoubltly be horrific, it's more evil to kill them first?

She's killing them out of convenience, not mercy.

Yes. Yes it is. No matter how you slice it, attempting a mass murder of children to save yourself a hassle, is a Complete Monster thing to do. To be honest, even were the original series in continuity with the Darker and Edgier reboot; I’d still say she counted for the trope.

@3383: Other than the Sorceress, I agree with all your proposals. Especially with Olympia now that I know she’s a robot following her programming. In one of my older posts I offered similar opinions regarding Clockwork and the Shin Megami Tensei examples. Speaking of which, for the examples I brought up here, it’s been about a week since I posted that, and if there aren’t any objections I’d like to cut all of them.

@Chaotic Queen: Regarding The Elder Scrolls, I agree with cutting Potema since she comes across as the generic world-conquering tyrant in Skyrim. For Umarill, I never played his DLC so I’m unsure about him. Based on how it's written though, I'm leaning towards cut. His goal is stated to be killing the gods, but seeing as they empowered the person who killed him it seems understandable for him to want revenge. The entry doesn't say what effect killing the gods will have on the world, or even if he knows or cares. Also, him killing the priests and using their blood to write a taunt, do we see the bloody taunt and the priests’ bodies? Do we see his minions attacking/attempting to attack chapels? That might save him from being disqualified because of Offscreen Villainy, but so far I'm thinking him too generic to qualify.

I’d keep Mannimarco though. We see his and his minions’ actions effects throughout the Mages’ Guild quests. Also his personality is actually sadistic, instead of only being ruthless and power hungry. I hear cries of Villain Decay compared to his Daggerfall portrayal, but that mostly seems to be caused by him turning out to be an Anticlimax Boss, as well as due to his physical appearance changing from something horrifying into something that looks and sounds like a pansy. His actual “level of evil” remains the same. Though his and Mankar’s entries definitely need rewrites. I’ll try to provide some by Monday.

Also, concerning The Elder Scrolls, I’m going to cut the Dark Brotherhood seeing as it violates the no groups rule. I never played Oblivion’s Dark Brotherhood questline, so individual members might count, but in Skyrim they fall under True Companions so at least there they wouldn't count.

edited 22nd Sep '12 9:35:00 PM by OccasionalExister

Regarding Umaril, yes we do see the attacks. The while quest starts when you enter the Anvil chapel and see the horrific crime scene. Halfway through the questline, the Bravil chapel is attacked and you can go to see the outcome for yourself. Towards the end of the questline, the Leyawiin chapel is attacked while you're in the basement and the taunt is halfway done being written. You stop them after they only claim one victim though.

Just made some changes according to some discussion posts concerning Sandbox.Video Game Monsters

I can't really say much about the ongoing video games discussion, save to voice my general agreement with 32_Footsteps and Occasional Exister. I do however, have an example I'd like to add to the literature subpage. The one problem is, the fact that he's a villain at all, is something of a spoiler. Anyway, here's an unspoilered example for people to mull over.

Ulcis, the god of chains, in Scar Night. After rebelling against his mother, Ayen, and being flung to earth, Ulcis takes up residence in a seemingly bottomless abyss. Using his Herald, Callis, as his representative, Ulcis gathers an army of followers and orders them to construct the city of Deepgate atop of his abyss, promising salvation and a chance at reclaiming Heaven from Ayen to all those who die in his service. This results in the creation of an entire culture of people who dedicate their lives to waiting to die, creating a high suicide rate, and a total lack of anything approaching an appreciation for life. This is not the bad part. The bad part is that Ulcis is lying. He has no interest in reclaiming Heaven (he'd much rather Take Over the World) and the souls that are sent to him are instead devoured by he and his undead horde of angels. And that's without getting into his treatment of his daughter. Having found an attractive corpse, Ulcis reanimated her, raped her, and then impregnated her, keeping her alive so that he might enjoy her suffering. When his daughter's birth resulting in the woman dying again and being released from her agony Ulcis tried to hang the child from one of the city's foundation chains. When the girl chewed through the rope, Ulcis recaputred her, abused her, and had her gangraped by his undead, gloating that there was no pont in taking her soul becuase by the end, there wasn't one left. When he encounters his daughter again (her having since become an amnesiac Serial Killer) he gloatingly informs her of what happened to her, forces her to recall it, than indicates that all of his soldiers remember her and would love to do it again. "They remember you. My little Rebecca. My little carnival freak."

edited 23rd Sep '12 7:33:55 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Oh my that is a particularly awful one isn't it. I don't see any redeeming trait and he meets the heinousness standard. That really is revolting. You have my votes on that one

You have more than one?

Yes, I mugged a bunch of strangers for their votes. I don't think they'll mind since it is for a good cause.

@ Deshar: What a dick. Keep him.

EDIT: Arkillo from Green Lantern: I brought him up in 2208: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=89#2208. Ultimately, I've heard no objections to cutting him.

Here's a recap:

He's a violent Jerkass who eats people, and kill random innocent earthlings. However, he's consistently loyal to Sinestro, even fighting his Usurper. After Sinestro leaves the corps, Arkillo joins up with Kyle Rayner's new guardians, even befriending and defending Saint Walker after Walker repairs the tongue he lost.

Also, I'd like to remove Kryb: The CM page openly acknowledges that she is a subversion (She kills parents and steals their children, but she loves those children), therefore she isn't an example and should be cut.

I'll wait for more on Kryb, but I'm going to Cut Arkillo in 24 hours if there are no objections.

edited 23rd Sep '12 8:14:58 PM by DrPsyche

Keep him.

Wait, who?

I meant Ulcis, but Dr. Psyche posted before me.

Man, what I would have given for a relaxing weekend of hammering out Complete Monster entries. But I can't really control what happens during the weekend; time to do some more work.

I kind of want to see what Occasional Exister comes up with regarding Elder Scrolls villains, as mentioned in @3389, before making a call. I'm leaning towards a lot of cuts, though.

@3392 Yeah, I would include that as well. Just be judicious when you add the spoiler text - much of that argument should be out in the open.

@3396 I voted to cut Arkillo in @2320, and it sounds like they've tried to bring him even further away from Complete Monster since then. Easy cut.

Kryb should definitely be cut. Insane, yes, but not a CM.

So, let's hammer a bit more at the video game sandbox.

I'm a bit iffy on the entry for SHODAN of System Shock - it's made perfectly clear that SHODAN used to be helpful until a hacker effectively lobotomized her into being amoral. Plus, the entry is written in a way that screams "I'm adding this examples 'cuz I think it's kewl." I'm inclined to cut.

I have concerns about the Trauma Center entry... first, it's a bad sign when the second entry claims to be even worse than the first, which implies that the first is overshadowed in heinousness. Second, I actually think in this case that they are just as bad (call me crazy, but I think turning kids into half-living disease incubators is just as terrible if you do it to your own children or someone else's). I would tweak the second entry to reflect that they're just as bad.

The Tsukihime looks mostly good, but the wording should be tweaked. It should give credit to both characters (monstrous in different ways) rather than presenting it as either/or. Also, the sentence after the spoiler looks half-assed and should be removed.

I have serious questions about Geld of Valkyria Chronicles, because much of what's described is presented as backstory. Anyone know what he does in-story?

The Varicella example... tricky to say. It's pretty much a Crapsack World and all of the characters are terrible in some way. And none of it's played for laughs. What's the way to handle that?

I'm torn on General Kincaid of X Men Legends - he's clearly Jumped Off The Slippery Slope, in that he attempts to kill everyone in New York City as part of his plan to kill all the mutants. That said, he did it because his wife was killed by a mutant (apparently by accident), and his grief made him insane with rage. On one hand, he obviously still loves his wife to be driven that mad by it. On the other, all of New York City. I'm leaning towards no.

For the Zone Of The Enders example, the first two points should be merged, since it's about the same character. The last one should be cut; it looks like a less heinous version of the third point.

Wait... this means I've gone through the whole sandbox! All I have to do is go through the subpages to see if they should remain seperate, and I'm done with reviewing those examples! Yes!