(she/her)
the Retromancer
What's the proposal though, merge into Token Gay Couple? Also how do the examples in wick checks compare with Homoerotic Subtext and LGBT Fanbase?
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I think Acebrock's proposal is to merge into Beta Couple, since the argument in the OP is the tropes are "Beta Couple but gay". Although I don't think the primary reason a Beta Couple exists is to provide fanservice, that part doesn't seem to be present in many works (many ZCE in the wick check).
the Retromancer
As pointed in OP, does the concept still work if it's about the main couple or not even an official couple?
Edited by Amonimus on Jan 19th 2022 at 6:31:24 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
I think what it wants to be is Token Gay Couple (a gay couple that isn't as important to the plot, but appeals to the LGBT and LGBT-fetishizing demographics) and the issues with fanservice and fujoshi is just a carryover from The Old Days of the site. Which IMO is a valid distinction from Beta Couple, but I'm just not sure how many good examples there are to salvage.
Edited by Synchronicity on Jan 19th 2022 at 9:45:33 AM
the Retromancer
Depending on how many examples are here with enough context, a merged description can be sandboxed or left for TLP. Some examples from Watched It for the Representation, LGBT Fanbase, Ho Yay, Gay Option, Pseudo-Romantic Friendship could probably also be reused with a different accent.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
He/Him
The reason I didn't suggest a specific action was because, aside from the ZCE issues, the misuse was a bit of everywhere. Faux Yay, used in a gay work, Pseudo-Romantic Friendship, and I think the Shadows House example in the token yuri girls wick check falls more under Homoerotic Subtext.
I like the idea of basically merging them into a gay Beta Couple trope, though. Especially since I'm not sure there will be enough examples for each alone to avoid starvation on Wick after all the misuse and ZC Es are cleaned out.
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Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Merging them into Token Gay Couple sounds fine.
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Agree with merging into Token Gay Couple, since that's an actual trope, as opposed to "two guys/girls happen to be gay."
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How would Token Gay Couple be defined? A problem with both tropes is that most examples are just "a gay couple in the supporting cast". How would the new trope avoid this? What makes a gay couple "token"?
I agree. I can't support creating Token Gay Couple without establishing what exactly that's going be. Right now it sounds like its "Beta Couple, but gay", which is just The Same, but More Specific.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
My thought is that it would be the gay couple added for the sake of having a gay pairing, without characterizing them otherwise. I think there's a difference between a gay Beta Couple and a Token Gay Pairing, which is that the Beta Couple usually has a specific dynamic and purpose beyond just being "the gay couple".
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
How do you determine that they're put in there just for the sake of being gay though? That's author intent that we generally don't have without Word of God. I'm uneasy about defining it as "gay couple whose only character trait is being gay" because I've never actually seen that in the wild, but I've seen plenty of homophobic people complaining that any gay couple in a show they like is that.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I mean, I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff by any means, but you can sort of tell if a character is a token or not if based on how the narrative presents them and how diverse the rest of the work is. I don't know if this does exist in the wild though- I'm just spitballing with what the definition would actually be.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
We can define Token Minority and Token Black Friend, can’t we? Also related would be Gay Best Friend, the LGBT buddy who exists in relation to the straight protag and never gets storylines of their own. It’s not really like would be the first “token” trope ever.
Fair enough; if we can find examples of it, it's a valid Token trope. Are there actually examples of it, though? From a brief look through the wick check, none of the wicks checked fit that criteria.
He/Him
I lean towards a Gay Beta Couple trope more than a Token Gay Couple trope, personally, because those examples that did have context make me think that the former is more viable than the latter. For context, here's those that I thinkhave enough context or cou;d with a small to medium amount of expansion from each wick check:
- (Beta Couple) Yamazaki and Chiharu from Cardcaptor Sakura... even though they're both fourth-graders, they have been together for years, contrasting Sakura's and Syaoran's uncertainty about how they feel about each other. Touya and Yukito are similar, in that they're much more low-key and self-assured than Sakura and Syaoran. They might not be sure about how the other feels yet, but they're both pretty sure where they stand, and there's no real drama in their story.
- (Anime.Im Gonna Be An Angel) Yaoi Guys: Raphael and Mikael. They sleep together naked in the same bed while holding hands — how much more straightforward can it be? Admittedly it could use much more description, as long as it stays PG-13
- (HoYay.Revolutionary Girl Utena) The episodes in the third arc of the series take the yaoi Up To Eleven, when Alpha Casanova Akio becomes the focus of the duels. This arc is positively rife with subtext, all of it being very clear and blatant. Symbolism be damned; when boys roll around in bed together shirtless, it only means one thing.
- Akio has subtext with Anything That Moves and that especially includes Touga.
- If even rolling around in bed with open shirts and unzipped pants is too subtle for you, there's a certain silhouetted shot of Akio and Touga on the bed together. The audible sigh in Touga's voice during this scene just seals it all the more. Well the sexual part of their relationship anyway.
- (LightNovel.Kyo Kara Maoh 3/3) Yaoi Guys: Yuuri is really, really apathetic and absolutely chaste with Wolfram. Wolfram, on the other hand, is head over heels for Yuuri.
- (Characters.Dragonball Universe 6) Token Yuri Girls: Caulifla and Kale's relationship, especially with how the latter calls the former her Onee-sama is something that feels straight out of the pages of a yuri series such as Maria Watches Over Us.
- (Characters.Fate Grand Order Riders A To F) Token Yuri Girls: Their Stage 4 artwork leaves very little to the imagination on what their relationship is. Also, their Noble Phantasm's title is Bond of Lovebirds. Blackbeard even refers to them as "The Yuri Couple."
- (FanNickname.Fate Grand Order) Anne Bonny and Mary Read are known as the "Yuri Pirates" due to their suggestive poses and situations as portrayed in their ascension art and craft essences. Historically, they exchanged love confessions (and consequently a two-way Unsettling Gender-Reveal), and in game they can only be a Servant as a couple, never as individuals.
- (NegimaMagisterNegiMagi.Tropes S To U) Token Yuri Girls: Setsuna serves as Konoka's protector, and admits it precludes hooking up with anyone else. Naturally, other characters assume this is a complicated way of saying that they are a romantic couple, or will be. Konoka certainly has no problem being her partner in their (kissing-activated) magical contract. It's pretty much just Setsuna who isn't aware of this. Naturally, when Setsuna proved to be a popular character, the overtones became a lot more obvious in the Negima?! remake, with a more knowingly teasing Konoka and a more flusterable Setsuna, to the point of Setsuna stuck between embarrassment and ogling at Konoka in a swimsuit. Considering that in the early manga the way Setsuna acts around Konoka is exactly the same as someone with a really strong crush (complete with blushing and a loss of the ability to speak whenever she's around) makes the subtext already quite strong.
- (VideoGame.Blue Reflection Second Light) Token Yuri Girls: Despite the high amount of Ship Tease and female bonding moments, Rena and Yuki are the only couple to have an official Love Confession.
- (VideoGame.Crusader Kings II) Token Yuri Girls: In CKII, there's a specific event where two wives in a Muslim ruler's harem end up falling in love. You can choose to accept it, banish them, or execute them. In the later cases, there is the possibility they end up driving over a cliff on a carriage together. (admittedly, this was because I thought it the best fit and was trying to avoid adding more to not sure)
These arguably have enough context to fit a Gay Beta Couple trope (arguably, some are definitely low on context) and all cases, except the last in the Token Yuri Girls folder do have deeper characterization than being in a gay relationship, as far as I can tell so they don't fit into a proposed Token Gay Couple trope.
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the Retromancer
What if the Gay Couple is the main one and all others are not, would it be a different trope?
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He/Him
Typically, I would think of that as falling under Queer Romance, Yaoi Genre, or Yuri Genre. I could see a trope where the focus is not on the romance, but the main Official Couple is gay, though. Preventing misuse would be a challenge, however
Also, typing around my cat is hard
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the Retromancer
Also had in mind, do pairs that "aren't couples" count like with Pseudo-Romantic Friendship and Heterosexual Life-Partners+Ship Tease, if they stand out from the rest of the cast and are basically there for the inclusion? Though it may be difficult to describe objectively.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
If there are enough examples for a Beta Couple subtrope, then maybe Gay Beta Couple would be more workable than Token Gay Couple. I do agree that gay couples in general are already covered by other tropes.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 21st 2022 at 8:15:14 AM
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This is gonna be a double thread, for both Yaoi Guys and Token Yuri Girls. I picked Yaoi Guys for the title because it's shorter and has more use
Both tropes are essentially identical, aside from the fact that they focus on different genders, and honestly, I'm not really sure how either is distinct from Beta Couple. They both have wick checks, (Yaoi Guys Wick Check, Token Yuri Girls Wick Check) which show big problems with context (in both cases over half of the wicks didn't have enough context).
Again, I'm not really seeing this as much beyond gay Beta Couple in a series that's not focused on a gay main couple (which is what the gist of the description is). The descriptions say that they're there for the Yaoi Fangirls and Yuri Fans, but none of the examples show that (plus, how would you show that, anyway?) and a lot of the time, I'm not sure they're even a couple in the first place, or they might be the MAIN couple which is automatically misuse.
(BTW, I waited five minutes or so to start this thread, so another could be made as well. We may be back to 51, but whatever)
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