The Punisher Netflix series

@Indiana 404: That has come up a few times in the comics and once in the movies, where Frank kills undercover agents. He always feels bad about it, but never quite enough to turn himself in or stick a gun in his mouth.

edited 19th Oct '17 1:47:39 PM by ViperMagnum357

Yeah, that trailer bears almost no resemblance whatsoever to a Punisher story. "The military is wicked and soldiers are evil men and Frank's going to take on the sinister government forces that keep you down!"

Like. Have they ever read a Punisher comic? Because his villains are typically organized crime. Sure there's the occasional evil military conspiracy, but that's not his M.O. This is like making a series about DareDevil as a Kree rebel fighting against an intergalactic overlord.

They're heavily playing up the idea that the military is bad and must be thwarted by private gun owners, which isn't what the Punisher has ever been about.

edited 19th Oct '17 6:07:43 PM by TobiasDrake

Indeed. He has no illusions whatsoever about what he is and what he does.

I was intrigued by Bernthal's performance in Daredevil. Certainly more emotional and lower register than usual. Not that the Punisher is typically an embodiment of class, but that he generally puts about as much passion into his work as a street sweeper, with a detached professionalism mirroring that of the hitmen he eliminates. I'd say Ray Stevenson's performance is by far the best on-screen so far, but this portrayal here - of a Punisher barely taking his first steps - is worth exploring in its own right.

And yeah, the PMC angle is a far cry from his usual fare. Same goes for his family being victims of not merely a revenge hit rather than random crossfire, but apparently of a Max Payne-style conspiracy, because... reasons. Apparently, the world has run out of drug-lords and human traffickers, so people can focus on the true villains... their own armed forces, natch. And never mind the alien invasions and secretive terrorists that are precisely what said forces were designed to fight in the first place.

edited 19th Oct '17 6:15:51 PM by indiana404

I feel like I'm gonna have a field day with this just like with Iron Fist. Or, well, it'll probably be better than Iron Fist but unless the trailers are just that misleading and the show turns out to not be an appraisal of right wing gun nuts, I'm not gonna like it.

My favorite Punisher is Thomas Jane's, personally. I love his passionless monotone and the psychological warfare he employs against the Saints in that movie. It's an angle I rarely get to see in Punisher adaptations: that he's not just a guy who can kick in doors and shoot guns real good, but a tactical expert who meticulously plans out his attack ahead of time.

Jane's Punisher is the only adaptation where I've really felt like was fighting a war, as opposed to just being an Action Hero and making things up as he goes along.

Count me in as another fan of Jane's portrayal.

He even gets to do a full-time Punisher justice in the Punisher ps2 video game (which he v.a's for).

I'm lukewarm on the plot. I'd be ok with the military conspiracy being a subplot of season 1 allá the Hand's shenanigans in season 1 of DD or IGH in JJ season 1. But starting off the show with the Punisher fighting an american conspiracy seems ill-conceived.

It has been brought up numerous times, but both Thomas Jane and Ray Stevenson get about half the character right-the other half. While both nominally feel like the Punisher, it feels like everything Jane got right was thrown out, while Stevenson fixed all the issues with the characterization at the expense of what Jane did well. In the same fashion, the 2004 film had a good plot, pacing, and backdrop, but it felt like a dime-a-dozen revenge flick. Punisher: War Zone actually felt like a setting where the Punisher belonged, with the actual setting feeling like a corrupt hive and Frank really fighting a war.

Pretty much what a lot of others have said-the two films feel like one that got split in half, with the weaker points of either executed well in the other.

edited 19th Oct '17 6:25:03 PM by ViperMagnum357

War Zone was too over-the-top for me. Like, there's a point where Frank kills a dude by punching him in the face so hard that his skull just implodes. Like, what the f*ck?!

Or shooting a guy mid-parkour with an RPG.

At the same time, it does have three moments that I consider really fantastic Punisher scenes.

1. Officer Budiansky is trying to interrogate one of the criminals when Frank just walks in and shoots the guy in cold blood, prompting the officer to scream, "GODDAMMIT, CASTLE!!!"
2. The scene with the reformed...I want to say arms dealer? I can't remember. But he was a fun character, and his death was surprisingly touching. "I'll see you in Hell, Frank." "I see you in Hell, I'm kicking your ass out."
3. Frank waxing poetic at the start of the third act about what this lifestyle has done to him, just before butt-stroking Budiansky to keep him from going down the same path.

There's been a few stories where he was about to turn himself in or commit suicide because he believed (or was led to believe, like in Countdown or Girls in White Dresses◊) that he had killed an innocent. 'Course, he's always prevented from doing so and eventually exonerated in some way, because this is a major(-ish) American superhero(-ish) comic book protagonist that is still commercially viable so he can't just be killed off or perma-bused or be completely abhorrent.

Well boy did this turn around fast.

I think I'll enjoy this as someone who never read The Punisher, just for Bernthal's performance if nothing else. Though I do question if there's really room in the Netflixverse for Castle to be taking on organized crime in New York. How many crime families/outfits are left with Fisk's, Cottonmouth's, and the Hand's operations squashed, and the massacres that Frank went on? Which ones could be reasonably integrated into this timeline?

I suppose there's Mariah and Shades, but in addition to Luke probably being the one to deal with them, I can't imagine Frank Castle going into Harlem and shooting up the place going over well with test audiences.

edited 20th Oct '17 8:39:27 AM by Soble

So a little less Death Wish, a little more Bourne Identity. Huh.

Punisher's actually probably got far more distinct villains to go after than any other Marvel hero, because they all conveniently free up space for more bad guys by, say, dying horrifically.

It's pretty easy to breed new mafia outfits for Punisher to kill. The inherent uselessness of his job is a running point of his character, that he mows down mobster after mobster but by the end of next week there's a bigger, badder and even more vicious mobster in his place and Castle's done nothing except escalate the conflict even further. It's the exactly right time for some other criminal outfit to rise out of the woodwork to pick up the pieces left behind by Fisk, Cottonmouth, Diamondback and the Hand. Like, say, Nicky Cavella, the Gnuccis, or Jigsaw.

Even without that, within the context of the netflix verse, organized crime activity we've seen was centered around Hell's Kitchen and Harlem. All they'd need to do is set the Punisher show somewhere else, like Brooklyn.

Brooklyn sounds good; ditto the Bronx, at least going by a line from the video game. More to the point, the Punisher typically acts against types of criminals, rather than focus too much on individual villains. Favorite targets include the Mafia, the Mafiya, the Yakuza, and for the not-too-easily offended, the Irish mob and the various cartels. So yeah, there's plenty of choice, so going for politically inoffensive evil mercs is a rather egregious curveball. Who knows, maybe they'll turn out to be British actors serving as red herrings for the real villains.

Have you? Because what you just described was one third of Ennis' Punisher: Max's plot arcs. His run ended with him fighting a sinister government conspiracy and killing a dozen generals. And that run is considered one of the best runs on the character to date.

Also you're pulling the "soldiers are evil" thing out of nowhere. The conspiracy seems largely focused on a single rogue official trying to cover his tracks along with his underlings.

edited 20th Oct '17 4:53:18 PM by Shaoken

Yeah, "Punisher takes down evil government conspiracy" is probably as common as "Punisher takes down organized crime."

Or as Yahtzee would put it "Why did you just say precisely the same sentence twice?"

See now if Netflix really wanted to push the envelope and distinguish this series from its other Marvel shows, the season would end with Jigsaw shooting Castle in the head. Cut To Black.

Season 2 details Castle as an angel with his weird bio-organic holy guns from the comics.

Noooope, never happened. Never not once.

Frakencastle could work though. That was surprisingly awesome.

I’m not sure if the Netflix verse is ready for Franken Castle.

I mean it was insane in the best way and that clearly plays to Marvel’s strength (see Thor Ragnarok) but...yeah.

I could see Franken-Castle working as one of those DTV animated features that they do once in a Blue Moon.

Indeed◊.

The Planet Hulk one was pretty good, but DC seems to have the market cornered on one-shot adaptations.

You know what's starting to bother me about The Punisher now? It is the ship wars that are breaking out about whether or not Frank should end up with Karen Page.

Which is freaking ridiculous because Frank Castle is not the romantic type. He's still mourning the loss of his family, and will probably never move on from what he had with Maria. And how would getting into bed with Frank be in any way ideal or healthy for Karen?

The whole concept of giving Frank a love interest is ill-conceived whenever it pops up. He's a barely functioning murdermachine in eternal mourning for his wife and kids. Even if he wasn't haunted by their memory, he would be nowhere near the mental stability necessary to conduct a relationship.

Honestly, why do people even ship Karen with Frank? The most likely guess I have has to be with how Matt didn't treat her well in Daredevil season 2 (which I agree with, as I spent the back half of the season wanting Matt to make better choices), but that doesn't automatically make Frank a better choice for Karen.

Yeah, shipping the Punisher with anybody just seems wrong to me, in any media. The last time somebody tried that was in that god-awful Thunderbolts-in-name-only series with Elektra *shudders*

I mean, let's be honest, Frank and Karen have a good friendship. Can we please have two attractive people be "just friends"? Frank is still mourning the loss of his family, and will probably never move on from what he had with Maria. And how would getting into bed with Frank be in any way ideal or healthy for Karen?

The common justification I see people use when they ship Karen with Frank is, "But Matt was an asshole to Karen!" Again, I actually agree with that, spending all of Daredevil (2015) season 2 or at least the back half once Elektra came in, screaming for Matt to make better choices. But just because Matt wasn't a good boyfriend to Karen does NOT automatically make Frank a suitable alternative. It disturbs me that a fair number of the people I've seen ship Karen with Frank constantly bring up Matt's mistakes as if Matt's mistakes are the main reason Frank is a better option.

And as I just said, Karen isn't in a position to enter a new relationship either. She's currently mourning Matt, who she believed died in Midland Circle, meaning that she's got the same "Bad guys took my loved ones from me" thing that Frank has. As someone I've chatted with on Reddit has said, it would make Karen a hypocrite for her to have issues with Matt going out punching people, yet be perfectly okay with mass murder to the point of shacking up with Frank. Karen's bond with Frank stems from her trying to vindicate and justify her actions over killing Wesley in season 1.

In fact, the actors have said "no, there is no Frank/Karen planned." Deborah Ann Woll has said that Karen would never cross a romantic boundary with Frank because it's disrespectful to the memory of Maria and to Frank's children. Jon Bernthal has shot down fans at convention panels who try to ask him these sorts of questions, and has said that Karen is meant to remind Frank of Lisa and what she'd have been like if she grew up.

In fact, right before the first Defenders trailer dropped, there was an editor from The Defenders (2017) and The Punisher (2017) who posted some stuff on Reddit. This guy said that there is nothing Kastle happening. Karen is Frank's friend, he cares for her as a friend, she digs up some information for him. Frank does kiss a woman, but it's likely Dinah Madani, not Karen.

The whole concept of giving Frank a love interest is ill-conceived whenever it pops up. He's a barely functioning murdermachine in eternal mourning for his wife and kids. Even if he wasn't haunted by their memory, he would be nowhere near the mental stability necessary to conduct a relationship.

And it would be a disservice to Karen because she'd essentially be reduced to being a love interest for her male superhero counterparts, something I think the Netflix writers have done a good job at avoiding typecasting her as.

edited 22nd Oct '17 2:26:39 PM by dmcreif