Really a Useful Note: Tabletop Game.Chess

^If anything I would argue that checkmate is an Obvious Rule Patch, likely one so old it isn't as obvious it is a patch anymore.

• A player in check may only make a move that creates a non-check position.
• A player in checkmate has no legal moves.
• If a player has no legal move the game is in a stalemate position.

Therefore, checkmate causes a stalemate position. The checkmated player has no legal move therefore the checkmating player never gets to finish the attack.

Patch: A player in checkmate loses.

edited 22nd Jan '17 9:12:57 AM by Daefaroth

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That is actually wrong. Stalemate at first was considered a loss, not a draw. And given the historical context, it's likely that "capturing the king=loss" has been the rule for the get-go. C.f [1] and [2]

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

That is interesting, I never knew that. It seems like there was whole lot of inconsistency as whether or not a stalemate is a draw or a win, or even which side wins in the case of a draw, and seems to vary a whole lot depending on the time or the place..

This signature says something else when you aren't looking at it.

Affirmative Action Girl may apply as well, since the vizier became the queen and at the same time the most powerful piece on the board.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Ok, last call. Does anyone still think this page should be moved to useful notes?

(If not, we might want to rename the thread. Otherwise, we should probably have a crowner.)

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

No, obviously.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I think remarks on how chess has affected popular culture (as well as the list of chess-themed tropes) belongs on Useful Notes, just not the game itself.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Chess Motif exists which would be most of that really, potentially a referenced by page could be made too

History of chess tournaments and such could be a useful notes.

I'm gonna say that I am convinced that it should be useful notes at this point. (Yes I know I made the thread, but I clearly overlooked one crucial aspect that I think makes it a work page, the flavor. Even without taking that in mind I think the page at least has a sufficient amount of examples from the mechanics)

yes, I meant to say "shouldn't"

edited 24th Jan '17 3:32:35 PM by MorningStar1337

Um, did you want to say "no useful notes"? Your arguments disagree with your statement.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I think I got all possibilities covered please review.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The Referenced By Chess thing was a little bit different than I was expecting, I was thinking more appearances of pieces and references to chess.

Playing the actual game or variants in a work would be something like a 'Featured In' page.

Showing a pawn versus showing the whole chessboard are just degrees of reference. "That man is playing Galaga" was a reference to the game Galaga, and for a Brick Joke we got to see the crewmember playing it after Tony left the bridge (In The Avengers (2012)).

edited 25th Jan '17 12:50:53 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Not really, actually playing a chess game in say Star Trek is quite different than say the chess monsters in World Of Warcraft or comparing people to various chess pieces. The latter is more Chess Motif.

Which is why the latter is excluded from ReferencedBy.Chess (use Chess Motif instead).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

All 3 of them are different and would be different tropes / pages and reading Chess Motif's examples it's trying to include chess monsters and such as well which I don't agree with.

Not saying anything more about the specific case of Chess until we get more people weighing in, but I wanted to highlight the Referenced by... trivia-trope. Remember that the idea was the inverse of Shout-Out, and that trope (including subtropes) is the metric to measure if a work should qualify for a Referenced by... entry. If work A does some sort of reference to work B, whereby the work A does a Shout-Out (it isn't coincidence, or it is a subtrope), then work B can list the example under trivia.

Showing work B is a blatant reference to it.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

By the standards of any other work, I think a lot of examples in Chess Motif would qualify as a shout-out. And those that don't qualify fail because they're more than just a shout-out.) I think that if a particular type of reference becomes so popular that it qualifies as a trope on its own, then we want those examples on the trope page, rather than the shout-out/referenced-by pages. But that doesn't mean they're not shout-outs.

eta: cleared up an ambiguous sentence.

edited 25th Jan '17 2:15:23 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Playing a game of chess isn't a shoutout, it's more of a product placement type thing even though it's a public domain game.

It's akin to say the anime stereotype of playing Old Maid in hotel rooms and that isn't a shout out to playing cards..

An extremely popular Shout-Out gets listed under Shout-Outs Index, which are various different ways to reference older works. Any example also counts as the inverse. The Referenced by... subpages will often direct the reader to narrower tropes that form a Shout-Out to only that work.

edited 25th Jan '17 2:45:16 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Product Placement is when someone is paid to include a reference to the product. Unless some mysterious group is going around paying writers to add chess references to things, I don't think it counts.

I honestly don't see the difference between "Alice and Bob sat down to play a game of Chess" and "Alice and Bob sat down to watch an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. They both look like shout-outs to me.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I think I do. The thing about Shout Outs (and related tropes) is that the entries tend to be directed at media that is either:

• A story
• Or isn't seen as "free". As in Public Domain.

Those that may reference RL topics tend to not only be few and far between but are limited in that the work is the only work to reference said topic. If the topic becomes a subject of multiple references then it winds up with a trope or Useful Notes page (like Chess for example ).

With that said. Chess is both in the public domain and as I mentioned in the OP, devoid of story content, it has flavor, it has themes, but it doesn't have anything that can be used for Homage that wouldn't be covered under Chess Motif. There are no characters to quote and there isn't anything that chess has that can set it apart from anything that would be covered under Chess Motif or be RL people troping. And its history and being in the Public domain would make it so that it's like a referential version of People Sit On Chairs; People would not see any significance to its presence unless attention was brought to it, (and in that case that might wind up as another trope entirely) while a reference to copyrighted content would be more significant because it lacks the long history of chess and because the nature of copyright makes such references more apparent.

edited 26th Jan '17 7:56:16 AM by MorningStar1337

Having a movie featuring a game like Chess ala Searching For Bobby Fischer, Pawn Sacrifice, Queen Of Katwe isn't a shoutout or anything and its not People Sit On Chairs.

Its something you should mention on a section or a separate page or something, Its done for pretty much every Historical Domain Characters like Oda Nobunaga. Hence my idea of a Featured In page for those games, things like Baseball and such should have one too IMO.

edited 26th Jan '17 8:08:40 AM by Memers

All three of those movies are listed under Sports Stories, btw.

I do think handling it similarly to the way we handle a Historical Domain Character is probably the best bet.

edited 26th Jan '17 2:08:52 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.