Condemned by History cleanup thread

Well, no one really hates Danny Phantom, so I don't think you can argue all of Hartman's creations count.

Also I agree - err on side of deletion when no consensus is made.

Sorry, double post - in no way is Sean Paul DTD. He was a featured artist on two top ten hits in the past two years (Bailando and Cheap Thrills, and no, I so not buy that only Sia made that song popular for a second) and was recently resigned to Island for a comeback album.

Yeah, I don't think anyone buys Sean Paul is DTD at this point.

Can the Jonas Brothers really count when 2/3 of them have their own very successful projects? It'd be one thing if they both were like Joe and part of a group, but Nick is releasing (awful, in my opinion) hits as "Nick Jonas." Clearly the Jonas label isn't doing them any harm.

That was the very thing we were debating. They did have to distance themselves from the band Jonas Brothers; our issue was whether that was enough to qualify the old band as DTD.

I know Laptop Guy was for deletion; I can't remember who was with me for keep.

HamburgerTime voted to keep. For what it's worth, I'd keep them as well.

We need some more input there for sure. Summary of arguments for others:

• Lady Antebellum: those for cut mentioned that they are not hated, just faded out of spotlight; may also be a one hit wonder based on "Need You Now". Those for keeping argued that they were disliked even when they were making #1 hits.
• Avril Lavigne: everyone agrees she is certainly hated. What we can't agree on is whether radio stations playing some of her older songs disqualifies her.

Looking at their Wikipedia page, I'm seeing that Lady Antebellum's "number-one hits" were on the Country and Adult Contemporary charts, and most of their awards are likewise genre-specific. I'm not sure that makes them quite enough of a pop-cultural force at their height to qualify as Deader Than Disco. The spirit of the trope is about things which were inescapably ubiquitous before their fall from grace.

I'm not sure I consider Avril Lavigne's Hate Dom quite universal or sustained enough to qualify. She was certainly popular enough at her height, but it seems like more of a vocal minority that actively turned against her while the majority just kind of shrugged and moved on to the next big thing.

edited 25th Jul '16 10:51:36 AM by HighCrate

Yes, keep the JoBros. Like I said, I feel like the fact that they had to go in completely different directions for their individual careers to recover is a point for, not against. And for the record, I'm voting for the band "Jonas Brothers." The Jonas brothers are the members of Jonas Brothers. Confusing, I know, but the band itself counts.

I don't think Avril's previous work has really been tainted by Hello Kitty. It still occasionally plays on the radio here in Canada.

edited 26th Jul '16 10:19:36 AM by PhiSat

I went on and removed Dave Bassett from the rock subpage; two songs that he wrote, Shinedown's "Asking For It" and Pop Evil's "Take It All", are in this week's Top 5 on Mainstream Rock.

Can we make sure that the main Music page and Country get cleaned up btw?

I dunno if I could add the music app Guvera here in New Media. It has gotten a lot of flac [sic] (heh) recently, and was, in my simplest understanding, shut down because of the Australian stock market block and business-stuff and all. And this just happened this month!

We're focusing on cleaning up existing examples.

All right, here's my monster Hip-Hop analysis. (Can we rename this page Rap?)

Firstly, I think the entire intro should be removed without delay. Part of the reason this page is so messed up is because the intro doesn't properly define DTD!

Genres

• New Jack Swing - because Jazz Rap was already deleted, this entry needs to be edited to stand on its own. Otherwise keep.
• Crunk - keep.
• Crunk core - KEEEEP.
• Snap - keep.
• Auto Tune - while the industry still uses Auto Tune (just listen to the latest Britney Spears song!), the particular use of it in rap mentioned here certainly qualifies. Hell, T-Pain himself took the piss out of it on "I'm on a Boat".

Rappers

Without fail, if I say keep here, I mean "keep and trim". All of these entries are too damn long.

• 50 Cent - keep.
• Akon - leaning cut. His controversies didn't end him; people moving on to the next thing did. I don't think he's particularly hated in any way either.
• Arrested Development - leaning cut, but it is true that most people only know them because they sued the show of the same name. I just think they're too obscure to count.
• Iggy Azalea - a true blue keep.
• Azealia Banks - It may surprise you but I say keep here. She may not have been mainstream, but Banks was an absolute critical darling. Imagine if Kendrick Lamar started spewing homophobic bile on Twitter - that's how bad the betrayal was in the rap community with Azealia.

More tonight, I'm heading out the door now.

I'll start my in-depth analysis on the Hip-Hop section too:

• 50 Cent: I'm leaning delete here, 50 may not be the biggest thing in the rap world anymore, but I don't remember him being hated.
• Akon: On second thought, I think he should be removed. He seems more forgotten than hated.
• Arrested Development: I don't think anyone really remembers them, let alone hates them. Sharing your name with a much more well known TV show doesn't make you DTD.
• Iggy Azalea: Easy keep. Quite possibly the single most DTD rapper on the entire list, with Soulja pretty much her only competition for the title. Her unpopularity is practically on Bieber levels.
• Azaelia Banks: Still going with delete. Even if the rap community is hated, she was unknown in the mainstream and is still a lot less hated than Iggy.
• B.o.B.: He seems more forgotten than anything. Like Avril, most of the hate he gets is for one song ("Flatline"). People still bring up "Airplanes" in a positive manner, and will credit him for helping launch Bruno Mars' career with "Nothin on You".
• Black Eyed Peas: Delete. Yes, the backlash they got from the Super Bowl led to a 5-year hiatus. No, it doesn't mean they're despised. I think much like Evanescence, the positives outweigh the negatives here, and their classic hits are still remembered and loved ("My Humps" is the only song they tend to get hate for). Right now they're just quiet; their new song was an Apple Music-exclusive promo single, and their real lead single isn't out yet.
• Cee Lo: On the border here. His rape comments did a lot of damage, but until we can safely say that his past successes have been permanently tainted, I'm not going to make a decision.
• DMX and Ja Rule: Classic examples of a fall from grace. But they fell into irrelevancy, not hatred. I'm leaning cut.
• Far East Movement: Delete. They're not hated, just forgotten. "Like A G6" may qualify on its own but not the group itself.
• J-Kwon: He's just a one-hit wonder. How about we add Silento, the Shop Boyz, or Asher Roth to the list as well?
• Kreayshawn: A complete nobody on the rap scene. She makes Azaelia Banks look like a superstar in comparison.
• Lil Kim: Nobody hates her. She's often brought up as a pioneer of female rap, just like Missy Elliott and Eve.
• LMFAO: As I mentioned before, they just chose to go their separate ways after their two #1 hits. I'm not sure I can call them DTD unless there was a clear public backlash.
• Mac Miller: He was popular for a bit. But he was never huge, and while his popularity has slid quite a bit, he's still doing fine by himself.
• MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice: Honestly, I'm not sure anymore. They seems like they've both become Michael Bolton-esque artists: So Bad, It's Good acts whose criticisms have earned them ironic fandoms. "U Can't Touch This" and "Ice Ice Baby" are still two of the 90s' most iconic songs. While they may be washed-up has-beans now, they've turned it into a gimmick of some sort.
• Mike Jones: Who? Exactly. He was a fad who burnt out quickly.
• Mystikal: Not sure. People stopped caring about him quite a bit before his sex scandal unfolded. I feel like many people aren't even aware of his crimes.
• Nelly: I'm not sure. He was huge and he fell off massively. But is he a pariah like Iggy or Soulja Boy? I don't think so. He still brings out plenty of nostalgia.
• Sean Paul: Because nothing says "Deader Than Disco" like being on the current #1 Hot 100 single.
• Soulja Boy: 100% keep, just like Iggy Iggz.
• T-Pain: Yeah, his career died with Autotune. I'd say being the face of a DTD musical genre easily makes you DTD as well.

edited 27th Jul '16 7:56:34 PM by LaptopGuy

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to keep 50? The only other people who commented on his inclusion (LaptopGuy & I) agreed he was a fairly obvious cut.

In addition to "My Humps", you could also cite "Boom Boom Pow" (I've also seen hate for "Imma Be" & "The Time (Dirty Bit)", but I don't know how widespread it is).

Agreed with LMFAO, and I point out that their songs still see a lot of play, especially at clubs. I heard both "Sexy and I Know It" and "Party Rock Anthem" last weekend.

Just an update, we may have to re-evaluate Bleach soon. It's ending next week, in what many suspect was an Executive Meddling-induced move, and I'm already seeing a lot of HIMYM-style "the ending makes the whole series a waste of time" reactions.

More than anything, 50 Cent's absolutely stupid claim that he could outsell Kanye at the height of his commercial career destroyed his career. That, coupled with the fact that his music is prominently cited as extremely problematic and filled with Unfortunate Implications in academia, really sunk his reputation. He's viewed with either mockery or outright disgust in the music community.

He has found mild success in acting but I am of the mind that this does not effect his music career.

edited 28th Jul '16 10:13:52 AM by LargoQuagmire

So... just trying to figure out, does that mean that it will or will not count as DTD?

Because the discussion on HIMYM was inconclusive here. Someone mentioned it, someone else said it qualified, and no one else commented one way or the other. I assume that doesn't count as consensus one way or the other.

Basically, it might so we should keep watch. Bleach's ending was announced very suddenly and will seemingly leave several questions unanswered. It's been declining in popularity in Japan for a good while now, and rumor has it the conclusion was rushed by editorial mandate to make room for a new and hopefully more popular series. The fans are increasingly turning on the series, and like with HIMYM there's a sentiment that Ending Aversion will invalidate the whole thing.

edited 28th Jul '16 10:48:54 AM by HamburgerTime

So basically, the only thing keeping Bleach from being DTD is the fact it still had die-hard fans (albeit fewer) and with this revelation, they may be jumping ship? And if that's the case (which honestly seems a bit premature), it likely would count.

xA bunch: So about Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer... can we say that as legitimate performers, they're certainly Deader Than Disco even if they've found a niche Adam Westing?

edited 28th Jul '16 10:53:27 AM by Larkmarn

It's an impression I've been sort of getting recently.

The poorly recieved finale did not ruin the reputation of the entire HIMYM series. That's like saying Seinfeld or the Sopranos or Lost are DTD because their final episodes are considered "bad". All three of those shows were revolutionary for their respective formats (sitcom, premium drama, and network drama, respectively). They are praised for their many codifying of tropes (such as the anti-hero in the Sopranos). It OK to say, for example, that the Sopranos doesn't carry quite the same weight it used to, with Breaking Bad rewriting the book on the Villain Protagonist story and Game of Thrones now being seen as HBO's flagship series, but you can't say that nobody likes it anymore for that reason. Even if its finale was controversial, it helped bring a B-list classic rock song into A-list immortality.

HIMYM is still popular for its mix of Friends and the Wonder Years, and incorporating elements of single camera sitcoms like Arrested Development into a multi-camera one. HIMYM's popularity is still felt; "The Bro Code" has been a part of mainstream pop culture for years.

50 Cent may have been mocked for that one failure, but I think people just moved on. Get Rich is still considered one of the best albums of the decade, and In Da Club is ranked as one of the top songs of the 2000s. Like Diddy, 50 was able to become a successful businessman when not making music. Yes, he did go bankrupt but so have many other celebrities who turned out fine. Billy Joel went broke three times and he's today nothing short of a legend. I heard his show "Power" got a lot of positive critical buzz.

edited 28th Jul '16 11:22:32 AM by LaptopGuy

I don't know, I was under the impression HIMYM was pretty universally scorned because ultimately there was no point to any of it. People might have not like Seinfeld's end but the end didn't make the whole series retroactively meaningless.