Condemned by History cleanup thread

Now, back to the films until Election Day.

And a few weeks. Which would only concern the works he's done, and nothing about his personal popularity.

In any case, we've basically agreed to limit our DTD listings to works, genres, publishers, and things like that. Trump wouldn't meet our criteria for inclusion no matter what. The Apprentice and maybe The Art of the Deal are the only things we should even be considering.

That's why we cut Hitler, even though he fits the definition of DTD quite well. Very popular in his lifetime, but now he's reviled by everyone.

Well, let's get started with the films:

• Keep: the parody genre (100%), bullet time, How Green, English Patient, Birth of a Nation, Charlie, Godfather 3, Police Academy (sequelitis to the max), Cimino, Gooding, Hudson, Kilmer, Lohan, Ringwald, Seltzerberg (hell yes), Schneider (punchline), Shore, Shyamalan
• Leaning keep: Gibson (racist and hated, but his two franchises have recently been rebooted. Is attempting a comeback), Sandler (punchline except for a few movies; overseas he's still a big star)
• Fence: Avatar (four planned sequels), Spice World (90's Nostalgia Filter?)
• Cut: going to the movies for trailers (no backlash), 80 Days, Andy Hardy (faded into obscurity), Beyond and Back (what?), Curious (faded into obscurity), Silverstone (one hit wonder), Trank (Creator Killer)
• No comment: everything else

I thought Fatty Arbuckle was a blues (or was it jazz?) musician!

If we cut the actors/directors, they could find places on Star-Derailing Role (actors), Creator Killer (directors) or Hollywood Hype Machine (failed rising stars).

edited 15th Oct '16 4:41:22 AM by AreYouTyler

I'm really torn on Avatar as well. Its success is impossible to deny, but when I hear people discussing it today the most common reaction I see really is "How the hell did I ever like this?"

Is Bullet Time really retroactively derided in The Matrix films? I also still see it here and there, so I'd cut it.

For Police Academy, pretty much everything except the first film fits, which is about what the entry says, so keep.

Spice World had a lot of mocking when it first appeared, much like the band, so I'm not sure how much of it is retroactive, how much it is just growing past it, and how much was already there to begin with.

Mel Gibson is tricky, since the entry describes a possible upswing, but on the other hand, his past contributions are swept under the rug to avoid association with him, which is a clear DTD indicator. On the fence on him.

Val Kilmer's entry speaks entirely about how things broke down after his successes, but nothing regarding any retroactive anything. Doesn't fit as written.

Lindsey Lohan's entry says, "she's still getting some roles here and there", which disqualifies her.

Avatar is an odd duck. It made a bunch of money, but nobody who went to see it seemed to actually like it, even at the time. I lean cut, but it's not something I'd dig my heels in about. Whatever it was when it was new, it's definitely a punch line now. As for its planned sequels, I'll believe them when I see them, and if they ever actually make it out of development hell, I'll be very surprised if they're anything like successful.

Will be back with thoughts on the rest of Film later.

edited 15th Oct '16 10:43:16 AM by HighCrate

OK, here's my takes on the film genre

Best Picture

• Cimarron — Keep, I guess. If it's that low rated on IMDB then the backlash is obviously there.
• Cavalcade — Cut. Just an obscure Award Snub.
• How Green — Easy Keep. It's nowadays remembered only for beating Kane, and when John Ford is remembered it's for his westerns like the Searchers
• Greatest Show — Keep. Screams PC-fueled backlash to me.
• 80 Days — Cut.
• Ordinary People — I'd say keep. It's now known as the film that screwed over Raging Bull.
• English Patient — Keep. Julia Louis-Dreyfus said it all.
• Shakespeare — Keep. Nowadays mostly known for robbing SPR of Best Picture.
• Crash — Keep. Now remembered only for the homophobia behind Brokeback's loss.

Now, onto the others

• Airport — Cut. More obscure than anything else.
• Andy Hardy — Cut. Mostly obscure and not hated as far as I know.
• Austin Powers — Cut. Still plenty of '90s nostalgia in here.
• Avatar — Cut. Highest grossing movie of all time and despite the backlash is still generally seen positively.
• Beyond and Back — Cut. ZCE
• Billy Jack — Cut. This is just describing the franchise dying out, not a backlash.
• The Bible — Cut. ZCE
• The Big Chill — "Quickly faded" = Cut
• Birth of a Nation — Keep. Nowadays only known for being incredibly racist.
• Charlie — Keep. It's now universally seen as an example of a remake shitting on a classic, especially with Gene Wilder's death.
• Crying Game — Keep. All there is to know, indeed.
• Erin Brockovich — Not sure.
• Garden State — Cut. The backlash seems to have died out by now and it's not really hated.
• Godfather 3 — Keep. Seen as vastly inferior to the first two or its rival 1990 Mafia film.
• Golden Child — Cut. Too obscure.
• Hangover — Cut. No evidence it's hated now.
• Harry and Tonto — Not sure.
• I Am Curious, Joe, Last Tango, Moon Is Blue — Losing shock value does not make a movie DTD. Cut all.
• Keystone Cops — Cut. More faded into obscurity than DTD.
• NBK — Keep. Completely stuck in PF's shadow, Tarantino's reputation is far greater than Stones, and of course the copycat crimes.
• Patch Adams — Cut. Robin's death made the film more positive. And an inaccurate biopic doesn't always equal DTD.
• Places in the Heart — Keep. You really like me!
• Police Academy — Cut. The first film is still well-liked, isn't it?
• Prizzi's Honor — Cut. Obscurity
• Reader — Cut. Stealing a Best Picture slot from Dark Knight doesn't make a movie DTD now does it. Then Slumdog would be here too...
• Reality Bites — Not sure.
• Reds — Cut.
• Scary Movie — Not sure. I think they hold up better than the other Seltzerberg movies.
• Spice World — Cut. Band is vindicated, so is the movie
• St. Elmo's Fire — Cut.
• Star Trek Insurrection — Cut. I don't think it's universally hated like Nemesis.
  • Nemesis — Cut. It was pretty hated from the beginning, wasn't it?
• Superman Returns - Cut. Still has plenty of defenders.
• Baby movies — Keep. Cheesiness to the max!
• Turner and Hooch — Cut. Not hated enough to qualify.
• Last Stand — Not sure. Not nearly as hated as Origins.

The first sequel comes out in 2018.

They actually announced it? Well I'll be.

A lot of the Best Picture entries just seem like people are angry about Award Snub from films that have otherwise been forgotten (I've never heard of about half of them.)

Can DTD overlap with Values Dissonance or Hype Backlash? Some of the film entries also seem like they'd fit those tropes.

Since High Crate deleted much of DeaderThanDisco.New Media, here are some that I think should be reviewed.

• Myspace: Only brought up in jokes that no-body used it anymore.

• The Irate Gamer: Only mocked nowadays.

• Fred: Pretty much everyone hates him nowadays, and they haven't made any new videos in a while.
• Google Glass: Remember when this was supposed to be huge? It fizzled out quickly.

Myspace and Google glass are both off-topic for the wiki, IMO.

Myspace might (barely) qualify under publisher except I'm pretty sure we don't have a Creator.My Space page. Google glass is not only not a publisher, but was never actually all that popular.

As for the other two, I have strong doubts that their former popularity was high enough to qualify.

I'm pretty sure Fred was a real big thing. I know my sister loved it at some point.

Myspace isn't actually dead. It's not hugely popular, but it's not dead.

[

Poor you, I really sympathize about that.

Anyway, Fred was once the #1 subscribed channel on youtube, and had a tv show and a few movies. That should show that he has the popularity for that.

Yeah, I think Fred's a clean keep. And boy was he annoying, especially when I was forced to listen to him thanks to my sister

edited 15th Oct '16 7:40:46 PM by Psychedelicate

My thoughts on DeaderThanDisco.Film:

• Genres/Styles/Techniques
  • Asian horror movie remakes: Cut. It was a fad that had its time, and then audiences moved on. I'm not seeing evidence of any particular backlash.
  • "Spoof film genre": Cut. Seltzer and Friedberg's movies may be a punchline (and not in the way they intend), but the progenitor of the genre, Airplane!!, is a comedy classic.
  • Porn with Plot: Cut. First, AFAIK we don't trope pornographic works, and second, without getting into specific examples or how I know (although if we want to have that conversation, we can), it's still out there. Mostly in parody form, but not entirely.
  • Awful British Sex Comedies: Cut. Reading both this entry and our trope page on them, it seems like there's a lot of enjoyment of them for camp value.
  • Bullet Time: Cut. Looking over the example list on the trope page, there are a lot of contemporary examples. The popularity of the Quicksilver sequences in the X-Men films alone disqualifies this.
  • "Going to a movie for a trailer": Cut. No backlash, people just stopped doing it thanks to more convenient alternatives arising.
  • Slasher films: Cut. This fits better under Popularity Polynomial; it may be on the downswing now (I'm not enough of a horror fan to know), but it's one of those things that always comes back, and examples from times when it was on the upswing still have huge fandoms.
  • "Apocalyptic teen genre": Cut. People still like the Hunger Games.

• Best Picture Winners:
  • Cimarron: Keep.
  • Cavalcade: Keep.
  • How Green Was My Valley: Cut. Examples even says "it still maintains a good reputation among film buffs." It's not "still good but not as good as Citizen Kane-er than Disco," it's DEADER than Disco.
  • The Greatest Show on Earth: Cut. Doesn't describe the sort of sustained hatred that DTD requires.
  • Around the World in 80 Days: Cut for the same reasons.
  • Ordinary People: Cut. "And like many others on this list, it stood on its own merits as a good, or possibly even great film that still holds up and would normally be comparable to other Best Picture winners." Then it's Not An Example. At all.
  • English Patient: Cut. May fit better under Critical Dissonance; it's not that the audience' opinion of it changed over time, it's that it was always a critical darling that audiences found boring.
  • Shakespeare In Love: Cut for the same reason as the English Patient.
  • Crash: Cut for the same reasons.

• Specific Films (Other):
  • Airport: Keep.
  • Andy Hardy: Keep.
  • Austin Powers: Cut. There was no particular backlash, audiences just sort of got tired of the schtick and moved on.
  • Avatar: Discussed above. Lean cut, but won't argue too hard against keeping.
  • Beyond and Back: Cut. The entry is a stub going on Zero Context Example.
  • Billy Jack: Cut. Describes their being "forgotten," but not an actual backlash.
  • The Bible: Cut. No backlash is described.
  • Birth of a Nation: Fence. On the one hand, it's definitely true that it's remembered as "that one really racist movie that film students talk about sometimes." On the other hand, the fact that it's still studied despite being that one really racist movie probably says something about just how formative / well-made it was.
  • Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: Cut. Describes fading into obscurity, not retroactive backlash.
  • Crying Game: Cut. Does not describe a backlash.
  • Erin Brokovich: Keep.
  • Garden State: Keep.
  • Godfather III: Keep.
  • The Golden Child: Cut. I don't know that being the eighth highest grossing film of the year really counts as "inescapably popular," especially by the standards of Eddie Murphy at the arguable height of his box-office draw.
  • The Hangover: Cut. As written, does not describe a retroactive backlash, just sequels that were not greeted as warmly as the original.
  • Harry and Tonto: Cut. Doesn't describe any particular backlash against the film itself, just that it didn't deserve the Best Actor Oscar as much as others.
  • I Am Curious: Cut. Describes a fade into obscurity, not backlash.
  • Joe: Keep.
  • Keystone Kops: Cut. Describes a fade into obscurity, not backlash.
  • Last Tango in Paris: Cut. Does not describe backlash.
  • The Moon is Blue: Cut. Doesn't describe initial popularity, and it doesn't really describe a retroactive backlash either. Things that used to be scandalous are eventually overshadowed by newer scandal. That's the norm.
  • Natural Born Killers: Cut. Does not describe a retroactive backlash.
  • Patch Adams: Cut. "A box office success" =/= "inescapably popular."
  • Police Academy: Cut. Example even says that the original is still enjoyed. That's Seasonal Rot or Jumped the Shark, not this.
  • The Reader: Cut.
  • Reality Bites: Cut.
  • Reds: Cut. Does not describe retroactive backlash, and description of initial popularity is spurious.
  • Scary Movie: Cut. Basically a retread of the "spoof genre" entry above; does not describe a retroactive backlash against the first one.
  • Spice World: Cut. The film has a dedicated fanbase that loves it for its nostalgia and/or camp value. Might fit under Popularity Polynomial, but probably not even then.
  • St. Elmo's Fire: Cut. Does not describe a retroactive backlash, just a regular one.
  • Star Trek: Insurrection: Cut. Does not describe initial inescapable popularity, and as I recall, Trekkies hated it with a passion from Day One.
  • Superman Returns: Cut. Got mixed reception from Day One.
  • Three Men and a Baby: Cut. This is an extremely confused entry that seems to be describing "movies what have a baby in them" rather than a particular movie.
  • Turner and Hooch: Cut. Does not describe initial inescapable popularity.
  • X-Men: The Last Stand: Cut. It was hated from Day One. Yeah, people went to see it on the strength of their positive memories of the previous two... and they hated it.

edited 16th Oct '16 6:03:41 PM by HighCrate

• Filmmakers:
  • Fatty Arbuckle: Cut. Describes his box-office draw dying due to scandal, but not retroactive hatred of his existing work.
  • Kim Basinger: Cut. Does not describe retroactive backlash against her early work.
  • Michael Cimino: Cut. Does not describe retroactive backlash against his early work.
  • Diablo Cody: Cut. Juno is still fairly well-regarded; the worst the entry can say about it is "polarizing," which isn't the same thing as "universal retroactive backlash."
  • Faye Dunaway: Cut. Does not describe retroactive backlash against her early work.
  • Vincent Gallo: Cut. Who?
  • Mel Gibson: Cut. Yes, the man is a nutjob and his political views and personal shenanigans have become a punchline, but his early work is still well-regarded, especially Mad Max.
  • Cuba Gooding Jr.: Cut. His role in Jerry Maguire is well-remembered, and he's remembers as the only good thing about Pearl Harbor, among other early roles.
  • Kate Hudson: Cut. No retroactive backlash.
  • Val Kilmer: Cut. No retroactive backlash.
  • Lindsey Lohan: Cut. No retroactive backlash.
  • Molly Ringwald: Keep, I guess. The entry makes a pretty good case, although I can't say I've observed it personally.
  • Meg Ryan: Leaning toward cut. Makes a pretty weak case for retroactive backlash, but it tries, at least.
  • Adam Sandler: Cut. His newer movies may be hated, but there's a lot of nostalgia for his early work, especially Billy Madison, Happy Gilmore, the Wedding Singer, and even Big Daddy (which I thought was terrible even at the time, but a lot of people love it).
  • Rob Schneider: Cut. He was always squarely B-tier.
  • Seltzer and Friedberg: Wow, do these guys really need three entries? Cut.
  • Larry Semon: Cut. Does not describe retroactive backlash.
  • Mack Sennett: Cut. Does not describe retroactive backlash.
  • Talmadges: Cut. No retroactive backlash.
  • Pauly Shore: Cut. A "modestly successful" career =/= inescapably popular.
  • M Night Shyamalamadingdong: Cut. Sixth Sense is still well-regarded, as is the utterly craptacular Unbreakable for reasons I will never understand.
  • Alicia Silverstone: Cut. Clueless is still fondly remembered.
  • Kevin Smith: Cut. Clerks and Dogmas are still well-regarded.
  • Josh Trank: Cut. Chronicle is still well-regarded.
  • Wachowskis: Cut. The Matrix is still, well, The Matrix.

Vote tabulation for DeaderThanDisco.Film:

• Best Picture:
  • Cimarron:
    • Keep: Laptop, High Crate
  • Cavalcade:
    • Keep: High Crate
  • How Green Was My Valley:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Greatest Show On Earth:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Ordinary People:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • English Patient:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Shakespeare in Love:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Crash:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
• Other Films:
  • Airport:
    • Keep: High Crate
    • Cut: Laptop
  • Andy Hardy:
    • Keep: High Crate
    • Cut: Laptop
  • Birth of a Nation:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Fence: High Crate
  • Charlie and the Chocolate Factory:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Crying Game:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Erin Brockovitch:
    • Keep: High Crate
    • Fence: Laptop
  • Garden State:
    • Keep: High Crate
    • Cut: Laptop
  • Godfather III:
    • Keep: Laptop, High Crate
  • Joe:
    • Keep: High Crate
    • Cut: Laptop
  • Natural Born Killers:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
  • Places in the Heart:
    • Keep: Laptop
  • Three Men and a Baby:
    • Keep: Laptop
    • Cut: High Crate
• Filmmakers:
  • Molly Ringwald:
    • Keep: High Crate

I didn't bother listing entries that are unanimous cuts. I'll add them to the list if/when anyone argues to keep them.

Edit: I went ahead and made a Sandbox.Deader Than Disco Film that includes everything that has at least one "keep" vote. We can add to and remove from it as consensus clarifies.

edited 16th Oct '16 10:35:56 AM by HighCrate

I vote keep on Charlie & the Chocolate Factory, but the entry needs to be rewritten.

Adding my keep votes to the sandbox. Read above

edited 16th Oct '16 1:39:42 PM by AreYouTyler

Thanks Tyler. It felt like I was missing someone.