Misused: Hero Killer

Here's a riddle for you:

Q: What's the minimum number of heroes a Hero Killer must kill to be considered a Hero Killer?
A: None!

That's right: the character doesn't need to kill a single hero to be considered a Hero Killer; he must only be powerful enough to be able to kill heroes, and be feared because of that fact!

I (or someone else) can do a more formal wick check, but I see a lot of misuse in the Live Action TV section alone. Is the problem in the description or the name?

edited 11th Nov '14 1:13:00 AM by Leaper

Depends on the kind of misuse. How are people actually using it? That'll tell us where the problem is. If people are using it as "anyone who killed a hero, regardless of anything else" then the problem is the name. If people aren't using it, because the character is easily powerful enough to kill heroes and the heroes are aware of this (and afraid because of it) but the character doesn't actually kill any heroes, then that's a problem with the description.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

If the image picking thread is any indication this should have huge misuse.

That's a very clever-at-the-expense-of-clarity opening post. Mind explaining a bit better?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Just a guess: the op thinks it shouldn't be Hero Killer cuz he doesn't have to actually kill the hero?

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

I'm afraid I don't understand what there is that you're not understanding.

You were being whimsical and snarky instead of actually presenting proper evidence of trope misuse. You made a general comment on why it is misused, but you should present actual evidence and statistics in the OP. Otherwise we can spend a full page before actually realizing what the misuse ratio is.

That was what I thought at first, but that's not a failure off understanding. I thought my argument was clear: that naming a trope Hero Killer when it doesn't require killing heroes is the equivalent of naming a trope Fluffy Bunnies when it's actually about spiky porcupines.

But I (as I do in my OP) acknowledge the need for pointing out the misuse; it's a little tough to do without work context, though. I'll get to it sometime soon.

The way I see it though is this trope is really misdefined. The trope description is more 'any villain that is a threat to kill heroes' Well that 99% of the villains out there. The image picking thread is pushing for a Vader image and well he is just The Heavy.

IMO It should be something along the lines of Long-Runners or Monster of the Week things like the enemy throws tons of crap at you but now its time for the ringer and they find and send the really big threat at you which usually causes a crisis arc type thing. In comics they tend to really play it up when such a big threat appears. Stuff like Doomsday for Superman, Green Ranger for Power Rangers or Phantom the "Pretty Cure Hunter" in Happiness Charge Precure.

edited 11th Nov '14 5:34:34 PM by Memers

Yeah, seems to me that the OP is trying to make the trope wider than it's currently being used as.

Like what Memers said, "being a threat to the heroes" is pretty much a part of the definition of a villain.

The problem is though, the trope right now is so badly written any threatening villain can fit into it.

edited 11th Nov '14 6:49:38 PM by Memers

The intent of the trope is fairly clear — it's about antagonists who pose a legitimate threat of killing the protagonists. It's not about Mooks, who are just there to be dispatched by the heroes with ease. It's not about Elite Mooks, who are there to be dispatched by the heroes with slightly less ease. It's about guys who present — narratively speaking — a clear and present danger to the heroes. The kinds of things that can punch through Plot Armor.

You can argue that the description maybe isn't that great, but the spirit of the trope is certainly fairly well defined. If you want to do a major rewrite, you need to prove misuse with a wick check first.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

That is pretty much describes every non-mook villain ever, from Big Bad and The Heavy on down to the standard comic book villain or video game boss fight.

If so then this trope is woefully underused.

edited 11th Nov '14 11:07:52 PM by Memers

Okay, given that the definition of the trope is a villain "so terrifyingly powerful that he strikes fear into the hearts of the characters," and that "a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown or a Curb-Stomp Battle will ensue" if the heroes and villain fight. (This is all given in the first paragraphs, and nothing in the rest of the definition contradicts any of this. Note that merely killing heroes does not count, and that there is as much emphasis on protagonist reaction as there is antagonist prowess.)

(Disclaimer: One of my main problems with this trope is that I think in order to be called a Hero Killer, you should actually have to kill heroes.)

(Further disclaimer: I am basing this on my understanding of the properties therein. If I am mistaken, it's probably at least partly due to the lack of proper context in the example. Feel free to let me know if I've put something here in error.)

Misuse:

• "Every major Dragonball villain fits this label" — Uh... how about no.
• Full Metal Alchemist: "Scar's Evil Counterpart, Kimblee could also count. While he doesn't freak everyone out to the degree that the Homunculi do..." — Which means he is not this trope.
  • "And then we have Colonel Roy Mustang who serves as a Hero Killer Killer. Both of his fights with one of the Homunculi have been utter Curb Stomp Battles..." — A Curb-Stomp Battle does not a Hero Killer make. This seems to be the main misuse.
• "Whenever Ali Al-Saachez of Gundam 00 shows up, you can be sure there will be much asskicking towards the heroes involved." — No fear towards the character is mentioned.
• Naruto: "A mini-arc introduces the Akatsuki organization by sending two of it's members to Konoha. A few fights ensue, and they toss many of the most powerful main characters around like rag dolls, even leaving the legendary Kakashi Hatake with psychological damage for some time. They continue their rampage until Jiraiya (who is so powerful that the only reason he isn't Hokage is that he doesn't want to be) shows up and chases them off." — Nothing in this example indicates the Akatsuki are at all feared by the protagonists.
• "Lord Darcia from Wolf's Rain becomes this in the final episodes." — Not much time for the protagonists to avoid him, is there?
• "Asura from Soul Eater is his first appearance curbstomps Black Star and Death the Kid with a couple of flicks. — No indication of fear.
• "Treesea in Yumekui Merry curbstomps virtually everyone who faces her."
• "Doomsday had this, also in DC Comics, including having won a decisive Curb-Stomp Battle against Darkseid, after having killed Superman." — As far as I know, neither Superman nor anyone else in the DCU really feared Doomsday, nor did he really show the kind of dominance required.
• "Ultron, in the Marvel Universe, a genocidal robot who has wiped out an entire nation on his own." — So what? AFAIK, the Avengers don't really fear or run away from him whenever he shows up.
• "In the G.I. Joe Marvel comic book, a SAW Viper misunderstood orders and killed Doc, Thunder, Heavy Metal, and Crankcase. A subsequent vehicle chase led to the deaths of Breaker, Quick Kick, and Crazy Legs. Cobra Commander, who had meant for the Joes to be escorted to the border, was furious at the SAW Viper. The SAW Viper's response? "I just wasted more Joes today than your entire legions have accounted for in nine years!" Cobra Commander throws him a party in response." — There is nothing about this entry that fits the trope.
• "DC has tried to do this with Deathstroke. For the past few years he's been pushed as one of the top villains of the DCU, on a par with Lex Luthor and The Joker. He actually has managed to kill a couple of heroes, including Phantom Lady and the third Atom (and in the trailer for DC Universe Online, he almost kills Batman)." — This entry shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what this trope means.
• "Willy Pete, of Empowered, is a particularly nightmarish version.... He goes out of his way to only kill D-List heroes and villains, not because he's weak, but because it makes people underestimate him. He likes being underestimated, as it makes people think he's a pushover." — Which means he is not this trope.
• "In the Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog, the current Eggman (actually an alternate version of the first one), was this." — I don't know much about Sonic, but was he ever afraid of, much less constantly defeated by, any version of Robotnik?
• "In Spider-Girl Roderick Kingsley, the original Hobgoblin, becomes this after coming out of retirement. He effortlessly beats down Spider-Girl and her allies with minimal help..." — So what?!?
• "Even when they have one on their side, enemy Terminators are usually powerful enough that they can defeat, if not outright destroy, the humans' Terminator allies. This is especially prevalent in The Sarah Connor Chronicles, where the series makes it clear that Cameron is actually the underdog in most fight scenes involving her and other Terminators." — Again, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of this trope.
• "Syndrome from The Incredibles builds a robot to kill off superheroes so that he can be the only one left to defeat it and be seen as a hero himself." — Again, so what? I must've missed the part where Syndrome constantly kicked the Incredibles' asses and was feared by them.
• "Dennis from The Sponge Bob Square Pants Movie, although quite frankly almost anyone could pose just as much danger to Spongebob and Patrick." — You cannot tell me that this is in any way an example.
• "To a lesser extent, Darth Maul. The first time the Jedi encounter him, he's too much of a match for Qui-Gon, forcing the Jedi Master to flee." — No.
• " Bane in The Dark Knight Rises didn't exactly kill Batman but he was the only villain in the entire trilogy to completely overpower him. This resulted in their first fight being so one-sided, that it's hardly even fair to call it a fight, ending with a recreation of one of the most iconic moments in comic book history, Bane breaking Batman's back." — Yes, use a villain whose hero is specifically written as almost never showing fear towards a villain, in a trope that is all about the heroes showing fear.
• "As far as Disney goes, only Scar, Clayton and Dr. Facilier qualify for both killing a main character in cold blood, bypassing the heavily equipped Plot Armour that's commonplace in Disney movies." — *sigh*
• "In X-Men Origins: Wolverine, Victor Creed murders about 80% of the cast." — Say it with me again: so what?
• "If you are face to face with Lord Voldemort and your name isn't Albus Dumbledore, you either run like hell or kiss your butt goodbye." — Okay, this one is actually an example; I call this one out to show how misunderstood this trope is when a perfectly good example doesn't call out fundamentally important parts of the definition.
• "In the Sherlock Holmes stories, Moriarty..." — Holmes? Fear and constantly defeated by Moriarty?!? Insulting!
• Buffy The Vampire Slayer: "The evil Priest Caleb from the end of the show. He delivers a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown to Buffy, Spike, Faith, and Kennedy, brutally breaks Rona's arm, kills two Potentials, and finally gouges out Xander's eye." — No.
  • "Vampire Xander kills Wishverse Angel." — Hahahaha!
• Smallville: "Though the only one to actually kill a hero was Slade. Of course, since it was Hawkman, who is kinda low in the power department (nothing like Clark's Combo Platter Powers or Green Arrow's wide variety of weaponry) none of the heavy-hitters in this series exactly come to dread him." — Again, just to point out how misunderstood this trope is.
• "The demon, Meg Masters from Series/Supernatural is an example of this trope." — As far as I know, she's not.
• "Older Than Feudalism: Typhon in Greek myth may well be the Ur Example." — The idea of the Greek gods fearing anyone/thing is, as far as I can remember, laughable.
• "In Norse Mythology, any of the major players at Ragnarok, including Surtr, Nidhöggr, Fenrir, and Jörmungandr could qualify for this trope, given the sheer number of bodies that they leave behind." — But this trope isn't just about body count.
• Most Professional Wrestling examples. The genre revolves around not having one guy win all the time, as far as I know, especially not a villain.
• I look in askance at the Tabletop Games examples. Certainly some are famously feared by players, but they should be accompanied by examples of player reaction towards them.
• "Every time Vladimir Makarov appears in the flesh, without exception, a Player Character either dies or gets critically wounded, usually along with other important characters as well." — Again, so what?
• "Xykon from The Order of the Stick" — The protagonists definitely do not fear him, nor are they constantly defeated by him.
• "Vlad Masters from Danny Phantom counts somewhat, but a much better example would be Dark Danny from The Ultimate Enemy" — I don't think either of them count.
• "Black Beetle on Young Justice is the biggest Badass in the Reach and he knows it. He's a Justice League tier threat who shows up when the League's main heavy hitters are off-planet and repeatedly curbstomps the teen heroes while relishing every minute of it" — Not feared, AFAIK.

And there are more I probably missed and/or skimmed over. Basically, most of the examples just on the trope page alone seem to only look at how powerful the villain is (and/or whether or not he killed at least one hero), and ignore the need for a consistent record of victory against the heroes, and/or ignore the need for the heroes to fear him (the description specifically connects this trope to The Dreaded, so it has to be a requirement).

I seriously think that a Hero Killer should have a single requirement: killing a hero, the more important, the better. That's what the name says, and that's what it should mean. Heroes dying is unusual enough that I think this is a trope.

A literal Hero Killer trope probably should get the name IMO.

The Ringer Villain type like I described above should probably be spun off onto its own trope. IMO that is what this trope wants to be.

Threatening Villain is just chairs and everything else is already covered by other tropes.

edited 12th Nov '14 12:49:35 AM by Memers

I believe we have 2 tropes here: one where a baddie induces The Hero Dies (literal Hero Killer, pretty much), and another where ut's just a threatening and feared baddie and the narrative treats them as being a tough nut to crack (which is arguably The Dreaded already).

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

So I looked further. The description says that the Hero Killer is The Dreaded, "with the proviso that they like to get their hands dirty," only I don't see anything in The Dreaded about NOT getting their hands dirty, AND Hero Killer is used in The Dreaded as if the name is the same as the definition, which, as I've already demonstrated above, it is not.

This thing is a fucking mess, is what it is.

Well, not necessarily. Non-Action Big Bad is a thing — a big bad doesn't have to pose a physical threat to the heroes. The Heavy is just the most visible villain, the one who drives the plot — also not necessarily a dangerous combatant. Sure, there are a lot of characters that count, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a distinct trope.

The short version of Hero Killer is that they're antagonists who ignore Plot Armor. While Mooks (and especially upgraded versions like Elite Mooks, Giant Mook, King Mook, etc) may be theoretically dangerous based on their in-universe capabilities, the reality is that most stories aren't going to kill their protagonists with them. A Hero Killer, on the other hand, is an enemy that can kill characters, regardless of how important they are.

Of course, not all works use Plot Armor, so not all works are going to have Hero Killers, even if there are, in fact, characters who kill heroes. If you're watching a WWII movie, and one of the characters dies from a random shot during a big battle, that doesn't make that anonymous enemy shooter a Hero Killer. Generally speaking, if Anyone Can Die is in effect, you're probably not going to have a distinct Hero Killer.

Edit — forgot to mention. The wick check is... flawed. Just based on works that I'm personally familiar with, a lot of those are valid examples, and a lot of the ones I don't know first-hand also seem like correct usage based on the the writeup for them. You seem to be far too focused on "causes fear" (which is The Dreaded more than Hero Killer) than "presents a major threat to the heroes" (which is what Hero Killer is actually about).

edited 12th Nov '14 7:14:04 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Of course I concentrated on villains that cause fear. The description says that this is a "villain who is so terrifyingly powerful that he strikes fear into the hearts of the characters" (the very first sentence of the description, almost in its entirety), that it's "a Subtrope of The Dreaded," and that "a character doesn't qualify for this trope because they happened to kill one or two heroes. They have to be feared for their ability to do this." (Emphasis mine.)

I don't see how you can dismiss the fear aspect when the description pounds in its importance repeatedly, never mind the subtrope part. If the important part is about a villain who ignoring Plot Armor, it does a damn poor job of saying so, considering it waits until the third paragraph to even mention it.

Anyway, I still don't see why any of these descriptions so far should be named Hero Killer except "villain who has killed at least one hero," although ignoring Plot Armor does come close.

edited 12th Nov '14 7:32:02 PM by Leaper

I think the core of the trope revolves around the fact they have a reputation directly within the hero's experience. They knew the people who were killed and that they were not chumps who would go down easily. That differs from The Dreaded because that can be all from hearsay, rumors and legends, and it makes a confrontation with them more personal (or more likely to be falsified because it was just rumors and legends).

edited 12th Nov '14 7:36:13 PM by KJMackley

"Ignoring Plot Armor" is just not really a trope unless it is explicitly there in the first place hence what I was talking about with The Ringer Villain.

Just look at the examples, I mean "every villain in Dragon Ball Z" seriously? "every comicbook villain ever" uhh. Darth Vader? heck no.

However in Long-Runners they will usually introduce someone who is especially designed to shake things up and cause a huge amount of trouble, injure or kill a hero, cause a crisis type arc yada then leave the story via Heel–Face Turn, was just a hired merc, depowered, injury, only show up on occasion when it interests them, and such. They are never The Big Bad or The Heavy.

That is the type of thing I think this trope was going for.

Literal Hero Killers should be a trope and it should take the place of this one as well that is what the name freaken means and that is what the misuse is.

edited 12th Nov '14 7:49:35 PM by Memers

100% with Memers: the appeal of the name Hero Killer is its finality and certainty - they that kill heroes. A villains' inclusion under this title ought to be a spoiler, unless the heroes they've killed exist in the plot's backstory.

edited 13th Nov '14 4:26:02 AM by Az_Tech341

Hey Harmonica, when they do you in, pray that it's someone who knows where to shoot.

Agreed. That's why it's in TRS.

How is that wrong? Dragon Ball Z's protagonists can go through minions like nobody's business, but the Big Bad of each arc is so powerful that only the strongest of them even have a chance to beat them. The heroes of Star Wars fight off legions of stormtroopers without a scratch, but Darth Vader kills Obi Wan, captures Han et al, and maims Luke in a lightsaber duel. What about those examples makes them bad?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I believe, it's not the matter of which counts better as a "hero killer" so much as ALL of them are tropable to varying degrees. Now we have to choose what this trope is.

Is it:

• someone who breaks Plot Armor?
• someone who kills the hero?
• someone who's so feared by the hero? (Or everyone for that matter?)
• someone whom the narrative makes unstoppable?
• someone who presents a legit challenge to the hero?

MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW

I believe some of those definitions may already have their own tropes.

@3 is The Dreaded @4 is Invincible Villain @5 describes pretty much any legit antagonist (and not necessarily a villain).

Not seeing how 1 & 2 is distinct from each other. The reason why heroes' death are so shocking is because heroes tend to have Plot Armor.

edited 13th Nov '14 7:44:06 PM by theAdeptRogue