Big Three Super-Villains

So, got into a discussion recently on the Big 3 Super-heroes and we rapidly agreed on who they were (if not the order)

Superman, Batman and Spider-man. The Cape, The Anti-hero, The Everyman. Or the angel, the devil and man.

That led us to the opposite; who are the big three Super-villains ? Much more disagreement here ! My picks were (in no particular order):

Doctor Doom - He's quintessential super-villain. Whatever a super-villains are, Doom is. The name, the mask, the speech, the revenge, the likelihood of building a deathray, Doom is just the whole package.

The Joker - He's so adaptable, there's not really anything you can't imagine the Joker doing. And it's his utter disregard for any kind of motive, you can't predict him or guess his plan. He might be out to kill everyone born a Ares or he might be looking to trick one guy, whatever he finds funny today.

Magneto - (I know he's been with the X-Men for years now, but still counting him in the villain slot.) The Anti-Villain. The villain who almost makes sense. I think the "Magneto was right" t-shirt just really sums up this guy.

Thoughts ?

edited 2nd Mar '14 1:56:03 PM by Anteres

I'd keep those three for sure, but I think that expanding to a Big Six. Those archetypes being:

• Doctor Doom - the mad scientist
• The Joker - the maniac
• Magneto - the extremist
• Darkseid - the god
• Kingpin - the manipulator behind the scenes
• (???) - the evil copy (potential candidates: Sinestro, Venom, Reverse Flash, Bizarro)

I think it's reasonable to say that most major supervillains riff on one or more of these archetypes (Norman Osborn is part maniac and part manipulator; Sinestro evolved into an extremist while remaining an evil copy; Lex Luthor has been mad scientist and manipulator and both; Ultron is mad scientist and maniac; Helmut Zemo has occupied at least half of these archetypes). The only well-known supervillain I can name who really doesn't fit any of these descriptors is Captain Cold, so perhaps "career criminal" can be added, and also possible "the monster" for villains who are barely sentient or otherwise just forces of nature.

Also, when I say "the god," I don't necessarily mean gods - just villains who are defined by their overwhelming power and by being somehow cosmically essential or world-shaking. The Beyonder, the Anti-Monitor, Nekron, and Thanos would fit this archetype, while Loki probably would not.

If you have to narrow it down to three, though, I think that Joker, Doom, and Magneto is a pretty good trio.

edited 2nd Mar '14 3:20:51 PM by TheEvilDrBolty

I think more villains would fall under "career criminal" than any of the other groups - Catwoman, The Wrecking Crew, a lot of Spider-Man's Rogues Gallery, etc.

True. The six archetypes I laid out are more or less the only ones that are archenemy material - I'd estimate that any "greatest enemy" you could name for any superhero would fit one of those six. However, the career criminals and the monsters make up the majority of month-to-month antagonists.

Take over the world or rob a bank.

That's actually a take on motivations for Super-Villains. It's usually.

Profit - Most of the Flash's Rogues, the Shocker

Ideological - Magneto, Ra's to some degree

Power - Either take over a city or the world

Personal - They're focused on the hero specifically. Joker or Reverse-Flash

Could also say, I dunno, Nature ? Galactus or Doomsday for example. It's just what they ARE.

And in their own way, each of those three are the reflection of the hero they're attached to; Super-genius, terrifying "ordinary" human and mutant saviour.

edited 2nd Mar '14 4:26:50 PM by Anteres

Yeah, Galactus and Doomsday get the kind of vibe that I was going for in "god" and "monster." (In some ways, "god" is a higher category than "monster," so perhaps they should be folded into just "monster"?)

Honorable mention for Dracula.

As god/moster or as big super-villain ?

My take on a "Big Three" villains goes by the following logic:

• There should be three from both Marvel and DC, just like how each world has its own "Big Three" heroes.
• The big three should be what people think of when you hear the word "Villain", if you have a passing familiarity with that universe.
• Each one should be from a separate character franchise.
• The three Villains need not be the archnemeses of the "Big Three" heroes, but they must be three characters that, like the big three heroes, could work reasonably well together, even with ideological differences.

So, with no further ado, I have:

• Marvel:
  • Doctor Doom: Come on. You know Doctor Doom is the quintessential Marvel villain.
  • Magneto: This is the other no-brainer. Even people who aren't really familiar with comics know Magneto, and he and Doom have worked together in the past.
  • Loki: Loki, although not one of the more "successful" villains in the Marvel universe, still has a significant impact on its universe. Further, with his Ensemble Dark Horse stature based on the Marvel Cinematic Universe, he's become recognizable outside the medium as well.

• DC:
  • Lex Luthor: Come on. Again, no-brainer.
  • The Joker: Arguably, the most famous villain on this entire list. Too easy. And yes, he's insane, but that doesn't stop him from being a team player when needed.
  • Black Adam: Okay, this is probably the pick that needs the most explaining. But I'll do that below in the list of characters I didn't pick.

• Characters Not Picked, And Why
  • Darkseid: As I said, if the Big Three heroes of each universe work together constantly, then the Big Three villains should do the same. Darkseid wouldn't work with anyone except Darkseid.
  • Ultron: Ultron wants to wipe out humanity and rebuild a machine empire over their ashes. Neither Doom nor Magneto would work with him.
  • Sinestro: Sinestro would be my #1 pick over Black Adam, if he weren't an alien. The fact that most of his villainy happens in space, and he's typically above the affairs of Earth, means writers would have to constantly shoehorn reasons for him to work with Lex and Joker.
  • Red Skull: NO WAY would Magneto work with this guy.
  • Vandal Savage: "Vandal WHO?!" —Average person in Real Life. Besides, we already have enough powerless dudes (minus Lex with the suit and the Joker with some kind of powerup).
  • The Mandarin: He's a misanthrope. While Doom, Loki and Magneto could reasonably work together for a time, Mandarin would lash out against society as soon as he got the chance.
  • Ra's Al Ghul: Like I said, one villain per franchise.

And that's about it for now. What do you guys think?

edited 3rd Mar '14 1:51:25 PM by KingZeal

Well, my own list of six is pretty evenly split between Marvel and DC, aside from the one I couldn't pick a representative of the archetype for. So let's throw in Sinestro for that slot and I'll call it complete, since I don't agree with the "must be able to work together" idea.

My first thought is considerable amusement that every single one of Marvel's Big Three in your list is a Jack Kirby design, Zeal. Guess they didn't call him the King of Comics for nothing (even if the nickname did start off as an inside joke between some of him and some of his pre-Marvel co-workers ).

Poor Wonder Woman really needs a truly iconic villain :/ Cheetah is as close as she's got, and... yeah.

Yeah, I've written an entire essay on how Wonder Woman's rogues gallery is weak - although I think that's more due to DC not putting in the effort to "protect" them the way they do other heroes' villains. Sinestro and Captain Cold had huge renaissances in the 2000's, and have been promoted and protected due to being well-known thanks to the Legion of Doom. By all rights, Cheetah could be given that treatment; DC just hasn't bothered, and I think that her treatment in JLU is a pretty good example of how little DC cares about the character.

Well, Ares would probably be the best choice. He's also the one that appeared in Injustice. The problem with Ares is that, unlike Loki, he isn't really a rounded character. Marvel took Loki from mythology and made him their own. Ares is just a generic cardboard war god.

He would make a good choice outside of Black Adam, as well.

What about Circe as one of the big Wonder Woman villains?

"Who?!" — Average person in Real Life.

edited 4th Mar '14 4:27:03 AM by KingZeal

I feel I could add a Dark Horse to the equation, and mention Rasputin - a quintessential no-frills evil sorcerer, Nazi-collaborator and idealistic doombringer par excellence; a pulp villain at its finest, and conveniently immortal to boot, so as to be gruesomely killed as often as needed and still come back for more.

Other than that, my votes go to Magneto and Sinestro, respectively for Earth and Space-based tales. What I like about those two is that both can drive a compelling story on their own, without ever feeling the need to cross paths with their heroic counterparts - a feat few villains can honestly claim.

edited 4th Mar '14 10:18:15 AM by indiana404

I would say the Big Three Supervillains would be the Joker, Lex Luthor and Magneto. Those would arguably be the ones that even non-comics fans know.

I think I'd posit that there is a "conqueror" type which would include:

• Doom
• Loki
• Ra's al Ghul
• Vandal Savage
• The Mandarin (note that Vandal and Ra's are sort of expies of each other and are also expies of Fu Manchu, as is The Mandarin)
• Magneto (at least in some versions)
• Kang the Conqueror
• Sinestro (as noted in an above post, he also fits the Evil Opposite theme)

Characters like Thanos, Darkseid, Apocalypse, etc. also somewhat fit this, but I'd distinguish them because they are on a godlike power level that is above most of these guys are are omnicidal in their aims (I'd put them in the same category as the evil robots Ultron and Braniac). In contrast, the Conqueror characters are often but not always presented as Affably Evil/ potentially redeemable.

I suppose there's also an "Alien Conqueror" subheading which would include characters like the Kree/Skrulls and Superman's Evil Kryptonians, as well as arguably some of the above guys. Loki's kind of a difficult case to classify since while The Avengers casts him in this mold, the other MCU movies and some more recent comic book tellings present him more sympathetically (or at least a young reincarnation of him). And I suppose that one could also distinguish between "alien civilization attacking Earth" and guy attacking Earth who happens to be an alien (although again in The Avengers, Loki borrows Thanos' Parademon-like forces)

Edit- And thinking about it, maybe Loki would better fit the category of mythological villains (who are the enemy of mythological heroes)- that would also include a lot of Wonder Woman rogues and to an extent Black Adam.

edited 4th Mar '14 11:04:04 AM by Hodor

Marvel Comics big 3 would be Magneto, Dr. Doom and Mephisto right? Just in general prominence. I guess you could substitute Loki or Galactus for Mephisto but Loki really does not have his sheer influence and Galactus is...convoluted

Lex Luthor, Joker and I don't think DC comics have a legit third. Ares if I was forced to choose one.

Nah, Sinestro and Captain Cold are the next most prominent and recognizable over Ares, easily.

edited 4th Mar '14 11:25:21 AM by TheEvilDrBolty

I agree with Sinestro, but not really with Captain Cold. He's one of my favorite villains, but Grodd and Professor Zoom are probably higher up the ladder in terms of Flash villains. I think Grodd is a lot more recognizable as well (He had a lot of major appearances in the JLU cartoon), though none of them are well known to the average person.

edited 4th Mar '14 12:11:16 PM by supergod

How are we defining recognisable? To superhero comic fans, or to general people? Either way, I wouldn't say that Captain Cold is even the most well-known ice-themed supervillain that DC has.

edited 4th Mar '14 12:20:09 PM by imadinosaur

Despite this he is the oldest. I suppose it's because the Flash has not had a modern show.

The first Icicle had him beat by ten years, but this is getting off topic.