Jupiterian Local
A Fragile Speedster. "Extremely hard to hit, but will go down in one shot if they are hit" is the quintessential Fragile Speedster.
The problem people are having is that they're confusing "stat archetype" with "combat role". A Fragile Speedster can be a tank by getting enemies to target them and then dodging everything that's thrown at them — but they're still using their high speed to avoid hits, not using a high defense to withstand hits, which is what the Stone Wall and as-yet-unnamed +DEF / -ATK archetype do.
edited 22nd Aug '13 12:59:50 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
High "defense" and High "toughness" aren't exactly the same thing. In most of the games I play, the defense stats are a factor of how hard it is to hit the character. The toughness stat is a factor of how many hits it takes to knock them out.
This factor is why it will be useful to have the +SPD / -ATK trope, which combines well with the +DEF / -ATK trope, the two tropes combined form a character that is quick, and hard to kill, but doesn't do a lot of damage on their own.
We're going to have to have a discussion here about "Defense Stats: how many hits, or how how hard to hit?"
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Just throwing this out there, but Dungeons and Dragons confuses the issue all the more, because there, Hit % is normally a function of armor, not speed.
Is Speedy Weakling (+SPD / -ATK) tropable? It definitely fits in the hierarchy, but I'm having trouble thinking of clear examples. Suppose we can send it through YKTTW and if it makes it, it makes it.
Edit: I'm starting to feel pretty good about the way the descriptions are shaping up at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/StatCharacters
. I've got an entry for each of the three existing generalist tropes (Master of None / Jack of All Stats / Master of All), five existing specialist tropes (Glass Cannon / Mighty Glacier / Stone Wall / Fragile Speedster / Lightning Bruiser), one existing specialist subtrope (Glacier Waif, subtrope to Mighty Glacier), one proposed specialist subtrope (Iron Waif, split off from Glacier Waif), and two proposed specialist tropes (Immobile Iron for +DEF / -SPD and Speedy Weakling for +SPD / -ATK), and proposed descriptions for most of same.
edited 22nd Aug '13 2:23:38 PM by hbi2k
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I'll put it this way; In The Flash comics, where he fights Mirror Master, Gorrilla Grod, and Boomerang Man, the titular character is able to take a lot of abuse. But when we get stories in the Justice League, he simply cannot stand up to the abuse given out by the enemies of Superman and Green Lantern.
He's always +SPD / -ATK, but he isn't Fragile in his own work.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Eh, the Flash's power set and Required Secondary Powers are so inconsistent Depending on the Writer that I don't know that he's a very good example of anything. He's certainly not -ATK in Justice League, where he ran around the world to get up the momentum to punch the Braniac out of Brainthor.
edited 22nd Aug '13 3:40:37 PM by hbi2k
Jupiterian Local
edited 22nd Aug '13 8:01:05 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
exactly how many times did he have to hit Luthor to do that? Scratch Damage adds up. Your point about Depending On The Writer is well-taken; that's a factor that affects all of the Long-Runners when it comes to these stat tropes.
and it will need to be spelled out in the trope, not just debated on this thread. I'm still trying to figure out how I want to phrase it, but I am affected by the Dungeons And Dragons tropes.
@hbi2k - problem with the sandbox: I was asking for just a paragraph, because I want to make sure we have a common core for the entire cast. Five to six sentences describing the two stats, and how they interact together. Very general picture. I want a core definition that we can expand from, no wicks. You're going to have to synthesize a lot of the information. Also, I think Glacier Waif was named via Misuse of Mighty Glacier. The examples tend to be +Atk / +Def.
edited 22nd Aug '13 8:48:12 PM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
No, the other one.
Wouldn't that "brief general picture of the trope serving as a core that we can work from" be the function of the Laconic description? I made sure to include those.
In any case, I definitely agree that a simple, streamlined description is better than a verbose, complex one that's open to more misunderstanding. I have no problem going back through and trying to condense things even more.
Re: Glacier Waif, agreed. The trope description states "Mighty Glacier but small," which under the old MG definition would mean "+ATK / +DEF / -SPD / -size," but most of the examples are just "+ATK / +DEF / -size," and some aren't even that far on the small end of the size spectrum, leaving it effectively "Mighty Glacier that's not The Big Guy."
That wasn't even consistent with itself, let alone our new definition of Mighty Glacier. That's why I think a split to Glacier Waif (+ATK / -SPD / -size) and Iron Waif (+DEF / -SPD / -size) would bring it in-line with the new stat trope hierarchy and make things clearer all around.
The alternative would be to rename it to something that doesn't link it to Mighty Glacier at all, and let it go off on its own as a character trope rather than a stat trope. But leaving it as-is with the name linking it to Mighty Glacier is just asking for trouble.
edited 23rd Aug '13 8:22:06 AM by hbi2k
Did some housekeeping on the work I've done so far. Moved the verbose working descriptions to their own Sandbox pages to make the main Sandbox.Stat Characters page easier to navigate.
edited 23rd Aug '13 9:34:02 AM by hbi2k
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Much better. That gives us a good starting point to discuss the tropes.
- Question: would characters with medium-to-high DPS due to a high rate of attack but low damage per attack count?
- Answer: Yes. The high rate of attack is one way to represent speed. 2nd edition of D&D had rounds that were based on weapon "speeds" and dexterity.
...can still bite
Woah, I didn't know we were doing this again. So does that mean that we're going to turn the character archetypes (Mighty Glacier, Fragile Speedster, and Lightning Bruiser) into video game stat archetypes and eliminating all non-video-game examples? I had thought that had been avoided in the last TRS thread concerning these tropes. Oh well.
Also, Mighty Glacier and Fragile Speedster are NOT related to Glass Cannon and Stone Wall. The latter are written in terms of attack and defense, while the former are written in terms of physical strength and toughness and/or heavy weaponry/armor, which is much more specific. If they are going to be stat archetypes, they need to be rewritten, and should still provide a good reason why the attack and defense stats limit speed or vice versa. (Granted, they already do have examples given in terms of "attack" and "defense" in addition to physical terms, so it might be better if the tropes are split.)
Additionally, "speed" is too much of a blanket term. There are different types of speed: offensive high rate of attack, defensive dodging, and mobility (the ability to get into attack range or get out of the opponent's attack range).
On the Speedy Weakling trope, exactly what type of speed are you referring to? Because there usually isn't much reason for offensive power to limit defensive speed. During the last TRS thread I made a ForcelessSpeedster YKTTW that focuses on characters that lack brute strength for powerful attacks but make it up by using a high rate of attack. It was never launched, but it did manage to gather a few examples.
edited 23rd Aug '13 1:04:30 PM by shiro_okami
I don't think anyone's talking about eliminating non-game examples. We might consider putting the game examples first and putting the non-game examples in a "Non-Game Examples" section at the end to bring them in line with the generalist (Master of None / Jack of All Stats / Master of All) tropes, but eliminating the non-game stuff outright would leave a big hole in the site. There's nothing stopping them from functioning as both.
...can still bite
But what do you think of my suggestions?
Also, looking back at some of the other posts, crazysamaritan's post #103 says sort of the same thing I did. "Attack" and "defense" are too generic to really be useful terms. In one video game they might mean one thing and in another video game they might mean something else. Sure, you could just spell things out in the trope description but I think using more specific words (like "strength" and "toughness") is the better option.
edited 23rd Aug '13 1:36:00 PM by shiro_okami
Jupiterian Local
edited 23rd Aug '13 1:53:06 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
On Speedy Weakling and the subject of speed in general, I tend to agree. I tried to reflect that in the condensed descriptions in Sandbox.Stat Characters by specifically describing exactly what kind of speed each one is talking about; still need to go back through the full working descriptions and make sure that they match this.
And it's one of the reasons why I'm still not 100% sure that Speedy Weakling is tropable until we specify just what kind of attack and what kind of speed we're talking about. If we're going with @crazysamaritan's definition, where "speed" can refer to any combination of evasion rate, movement speed, and attack speed, and "attack" refers only to "how much damage a single attack does" as opposed to DPS, that at least gives us a place to start searching for examples.
I don't think "strength" is necessarily any better than "attack", exactly because it's TOO specific. It implies physical muscle mass, but Glass Cannon pretty obviously includes attack that's based on technological or magical damage-dealing in addition to sheer muscle.
"Toughness" might be better than the generic "Defense," implying as it does damage reduction and/or high HP rather than other forms of defense such as evasion.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:04:59 PM by hbi2k
...can still bite
That's exactly the reason I said they weren't related.
What about DPS? That can qualify as either high attack or high speed. What about dodging? That can qualify as either high defense or high speed. Perhaps I should be more blunt. I'm saying that the triangle is flawed. It's too general. At the very least it should be a square: (1) "force", how much damage an attack deals; (2) damage per second, (3) "toughness" how well one withstands attack, (4) "dodging", how well one avoids attacks.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:09:35 PM by shiro_okami
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with the conclusions that you're drawing. If Mighty Glacier and Glass Cannon currently aren't related because Mighty Glacier specifies physical strength, the solution isn't to say "Ho-hum, guess they're not related" and give up on making any sense of this family of tropes, it's to change the description of Mighty Glacier to bring it in line with the rest.
Likewise, if the concepts of DPS and evasion in relation to Attack vs. Speed in the former and Speed vs. Defense in the latter are vague, the solution is to define them specifically.
Personally, I think that the following makes the most sense:
Attack = DPS. It doesn't matter if you do 10 damage per second with one 10 DMG attack or ten 1 DMG attacks; the character still has a functional damage-dealing potential of 10 DPS. This is in line with our decision to approach this from a functional standpoint. It doesn't matter HOW a character deals damage. What matters is whether they're any good at it or not.
Evasion = Speed. This is because there IS a functional difference between whether a character is preventing, withstanding, or avoiding damage. A character that can stand there and consistently take a hit, whether by reducing the damage or having a high HP total, is played differently than a character that dodges most attacks outright but will be OHK'd if he does get hit.
Speed = Movement Speed and/or Evade.
Defense = damage reduction and/or high HP, possibly also HP regeneration (but only if inherent, not a result of healing or buffs from a teammate). It doesn't matter HOW the defense works, what matters is how long he can stand there and take hits before falling.
The only real edge case to this system is Armor Class in D&D, which intuitively belongs under Defense but mechanically belongs under Speed.
But I don't think one edge case ruins a trope. Just stick it in both, and make a note that it's a weird and problematic example.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:30:17 PM by hbi2k
...can still bite
That's not the conclusion I was drawing. I was saying that Mighty Glacier and Glass Cannon are part of two separate systems. Whether there is one or two systems, it/they need to be fixed in order to work.
As to your redefining, no, I don't see how it makes sense, and it seems that you are contradicting yourself. You say that with "attack" it doesn't matter how a character deals damage, but with "defense" it does matter how a character defends itself, because evasion is excluded from defense. "Attack" and "defense" definitions should have the same rules and be consistent with each other; if DPS is included in "attack", then evasion should be included in "defense", and "speed" refer to movement only.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:31:54 PM by shiro_okami
It's not a contradiction. We're discussing mechanics here.
Mechanically, attack speed * attack damage = DPS. If I attack and hit the enemy consistently, the enemy will fall down and die in X seconds. The lower X is, the higher my character's Attack is.
Mechanically, damage reduction / high HP ("Defense") vs. evasion is NOT the same. If I stand still and let the enemy hit me, I'll die in X seconds. The higher X is, the higher my character's Defense is. X is a consistent result of my character's Defense.
With Evasion, X is NOT consistent. It depends on some external factor, either a random dice roll (in games where I don't have direct control over my character, as in JRP Gs and tabletop games) or player skill (in action games). If an enemy attacks me consistently, sometimes I'll die in X seconds. Sometimes I'll die in Y seconds. It's inconsistent, and hence Evasion is mechanically distinct from Defense.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:37:59 PM by hbi2k
Now, you could make the argument that by introducing the concept of Accuracy into Attack, you've introduced another random element that would necessitate two different concepts of Attack (one deterministic and one probabilistic) the way that defense is divided into Defense (deterministic) and Evasion (probabilistic).
I would agree with you, but the tropes as they're written right now do not include such a concept. They all assume that character attacks are naturally as near to 100% accurate as makes no difference, and that any misses are the result of enemy Evasion, not character Accuracy. And I see no real reason to change that, as most games work that way anyway and doing so complicates the tropes to no real purpose.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:44:43 PM by hbi2k
...can still bite
What you are describing is not evasion. Evasion is not an external factor. If in a game whether you get hit or not depends on an external factor, then that game has no speed stat, or it does but the speed stat is virtually useless.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:49:52 PM by shiro_okami
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, or else I'm not explaining it clearly.
Evasion IS the external factor, represented by either a percentage (a dice roll, either physical in a tabletop game or virtual in a computerized game) or player skill (in a game that allows me to control my character directly).
Both are represented by the Speed stat. In the former the Speed stat determines the evade %. In the latter it determines the movement speed of the character under my control, hence how easy it is to dodge.
And of course, it's possibly for both to be in play at once (as in a tactical RPG). But cases where a character has a high Evade % but low Movement Speed or vice versa are sufficiently rare that they can be treated as exceptions.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:49:54 PM by hbi2k
...can still bite
If evasion was an external factor, than DPS would also be an external factor, since they work the same way.
edited 23rd Aug '13 2:50:50 PM by shiro_okami
Crown Description:
The current name is misleading, implying as it does that a Stone Wall is either stationary or very slow. In fact, the trope description specifies that a Stone Wall is strong defensively and weak offensively. This has lead to rampant misuse. As such, the name should be changed. See discussion here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1375910344098917700&page=4
particularly the wick check on Page 4. Excluding Zero Context Examples, we're looking at a roughly 60% misuse rate.
Just a small note on the wick check. The WMG.Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Open Two example is correct. I can't vouch for Force, but it actually specifically contrasts the character in question, who has the highest defence of all known characters in the series, with the girl with the highest attack power in the series. It's a pothole, meant to explain what kind of character he is, not a trope example meant to explain how he fits the trope.
Edit: To use the same series as an example of the high defence vs high avoidance, Fate is a good pick. Late in StrikerS, she switches to her super speed form, and someone mentions that she'll go down if she's hit. Key word being if. I'm not sure there's a character harder to hit than her. Now, is she a Fragile Speedster or one of the high defence tropes?
edited 22nd Aug '13 12:01:43 PM by AnotherDuck
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