Unclear Description: English Rose

It's unclear if she needs to be born in England or if it's just a personality type. The page currently says that she's of English (or British at least) breeding and that can mean that her parents were born in England but she wasn't. An American example has been deleted while a futuristic variation and a couple that admit that they are not English or even human have stayed.

edited 3rd Jul '13 9:22:29 AM by lexicon

Trope Talk topic.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I may only repeat my stance from the Trope Talk thread.

I believe she should be of British/English heritage only, though you convinced me that sci-fi versions are valid re-imaginations (per concepts like Recycled In Space and Fantasy Counterpart Culture).

If you believe the description is unclear, what part do you think should be re-written?

edited 10th Jul '13 3:28:43 AM by XFllo

If she can be in space or a fantasy culture there's no reason for her not to be an American, especially if she might have some English ancestor (breeding). It's all who make an allusion to English aristocracy or just those from England.

^ If it is still about Rose from Titanic, there was a really nice post explaining that she's Dutch-American and not really connected to England at all.

EDIT: Link to the message.

edited 10th Jul '13 10:48:27 AM by XFllo

An English Rose is English. It's in the title. Other nationalities need not apply.

Those who are not human or otherwise live in a fantasy land aren't connected to England either. That's Luserina Barows from Suikoden V and The first Romana of Doctor Who.

Having a Dutch name just means that she has one Dutch ancestor. How do we even know that Rose is American anyway, because they're going to America?

If she has to be from England she should also have to be from the past and thus "nostalgic," like the page says and not a "futuristic variation."

"How do we even know that Rose is American anyway, because they're going to America?"

She and her mother both speak with American accents. Rose isn't an English Rose, because she isn't English.

As for future incarnations of the English Rose, I guess that would have to go on a case-by-case basis. From my understanding Doctor Who is definitely in an English setting so I'd think a female character who fits the trope in other respects would indeed qualify.

If you have two characters who are exactly identical, except that one is English and the other isn't, does that mean one could be an English Rose and the other couldn't?

Yes.

Although they couldn't be exactly identical because the second character wouldn't have an English accent, and in any case, barring plagiarism or a foreign remake, they wouldn't be exactly identical at all.

If you have two characters who are exactly identical, except that one was born in England to English parents but raised her whole life in another country while the other was born in another country but raised in England, who can be the English Rose, the English citizen or the one with the English accent?

Yes. But how could they be identical if one has allusions to her heritage all over the place (accent, home, family house...) while the other would be a generic Proper Lady, The Ingenue or similar tropes, or would have an American or other foreign accent?

There can be two identical girls, one speaking in Received pronunciation and the other speaking in an American accent, and it's perfectly possible that the English girl is not an English Rose archetype at all. She could be very modern or even from Regency England but too spirited or have jerkish tendencies. These girls don't fit.

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For the sci-fi versions: I'm not really familiar with the currently listed examples (Film.Star Trek Into Darkness and Series.Doctor Who I think). They are futuristic versions, but to fit the trope, they surely must be written in a way that evokes nostalgia portrayals of English country gentry girls and young women — evoking it in the contemporary audience. If they don't have these vibes, they likely don't fit.

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Both can be English Rose archetypes, but only if they have her traits. Raised by English parents abroad means she can have an English accent, and might value English culture and traditions. The one raised in England, if she lives in an English family, will have an English accent. Both can be British citizen. The one raised abroad is very likely not to be an English Rose because she will absorb the other country's culture. I would say the one raised in England is likelier to be an English Rose. But none can be this trope.

I don't see what the problem is.

edited 11th Jul '13 3:28:39 AM by XFllo

The problem is that you hadn't explained any of this, so it just looked like people were going "an English Rose that isn't English? DOES NOT COMPUTE"

(Note: I don't know if this actually resolves anything, but at least we're getting somewhere...)

The important thing is that we have someone with enough understanding of the trope to explain what it is about Englishness that makes it important to the trope, instead of just taking it as given.

edited 11th Jul '13 5:33:04 AM by MorganWick

Also I should highlight that it's just my view of the issue. If majority of tropers here say that English Rose can be American, then ok. I guess I could live with that.

No, you're right to begin with. An English Rose is English. It's a go-no go test. You do a good job in your post above of explaining it further, but that's still the first step: must be English. It's in the name.

By that argument the English Rose must be a flower too.

edited 11th Jul '13 1:45:13 PM by m8e

Unless she's named Rose.

I'd say that while not having an English accent isn't a complete disqualifier, it casts doubt on the character fitting the trope.

Also, if a character has an American citizenship and is born there, but has English parents who're grown up in that culture and passes it on to her, she qualifies. I think that's English enough.

Check out my fanfiction!

Sadly, Rose from Homestuck probably would not qualify.

edited 11th Jul '13 2:52:20 PM by MorganWick

I didn't realize there was another thread for this. I still maintain that this particular archetype is about creating an allusion, not citizenship. If a Middle Eastern oil baron decides to hire an English etiquette firm to train his daughter to have all the traits of an English Rose so that people will think of her in all the ways they think of an English Rose then he's attempting to invoke this trope and I can't see how she could then not be an English Rose just because she's Kuwaiti.

And frankly, I found the discussion of ancestry vs residency a few posts up in this thread kind of silly. How many of you have lived in Britain? You really shouldn't assume that residency equals culture in a country with so many strong, multi-generational diasporas. Which is also why I'm skeptical of the power of Englishness as the must-have in this trope. Writing a character who is an English Rose in a contemporary English setting says something very different than "Oh, she's English". It says "this is a story about class and classiness, about ladies who are accomplished and respectable. This is what a lady should be... P.S. the English really do do classiness the best."

edited 13th Jul '13 9:48:44 PM by StarValkyrie

I'd say deliberately trying to invoke the trope is, well, an Invoked Trope.

Check out my fanfiction!

I don't know if this qualifies me somewhat, but as an English person myself, I would suggest that only someone from England qualifies to be an English Rose and even then, there are multiple requirements. In England we would use this expression to primarily describe women and girls who have a classically English, naturally beautiful appearance (her breeding and personality are associated attributes) - Kate Winslet, Rachel Weisz and Jessica Brown Findlay are good examples. The trope is so specific to the nationality, breeding, look, accent and personality of the character that someone who is American (or Canadian, Australian etc) would never describe themselves or indeed be described as such - it would just sound odd and forced.

It'd be like me describing myself as an "All American Girl" because (if it were so) I was sun-kissed, peppy, chatty and enjoyed cheer-leading See how that doesn't fit? If I'm clearly English in ethnicity and nationality, I can't be an "All American Girl". Some tropes are nationality/ethnicity specific - like Dashing Hispanic, Scary Black Man, Anime Chinese Girl.....and a French Jerk should be well, French.

The example the above poster suggested of the hypothetical Kuwaiti girl raised to behave like an English Rose still doesn't qualify her - no one would say "Oh, there goes Sharifa - that girl is such an English Rose" because she in no way looks the part - this trope has clear ethnicity and visual requirements (pale, porcelain skin, rosy cheeks etc), as well as behavioral indicators.

Rose De Witt-Bukter is a Dutch-American as I explained. She is of Philadelphia society stock, and certainly a Spirited Young Lady, but suggesting she is an English Rose when her nationality is quite clearly defined, this is inaccurate and forced (even if her actress IS a real life Rose!)

Carol Marcus (Star Trek listing) IS English, and evokes the trope completely - the future setting is irrelevant; English Rose as a character trope won't die out in the future.

The Romanas and Suikoden examples also fit - here's my reasoning: These characters are from fictional universes, but are written and played as the archetypal Rose. Without a real-world nationality (as with the Titanic example), they take on the character of young English women in a Fantasy Counterpart Culture.

In summary, if the setting is real-life, an English Rose should be English (not even other British races; Scottish, Welsh or Irish, as again these groups would never in real-life describe themselves or be described as such) and if from a Fantasy Counterpart Culture, she should present all the trope characteristics fully with a caveat perhaps suggesting that she evokes the trope.

edited 16th Jul '13 3:38:14 PM by lexii

I will support keeping this only to Englishfolk, mainly because I am afraid that people won't grasp the concept enough if we expand examples to prevent Trope Decay.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

^^ Could you add some of that explanation to the description itself? English Rose got a bit pushed because it was kicked back to YKTTW back when TRS had multiple pages, and working on that trope was getting several posters tired of the block on tropes that needed fixing. I think we did an average job back then. Which resulted in the current thread, so the trope could still be improved. :)

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Great post, lexii, my thoughts on the trope exactly.

I agree with crazysamaritan () that it would be awesome if you suggested re-write for the trope description (probably nothing drastic, it already says she has to be English, have certain personality and appearance). If you'd be so kind, you could check the examples. We could work together on the dubious ones or those that lack good context.

I'm inclined to think that this trope cannot be Played With, at least not easily.

Off topic, but this is why I still don't like the use of arbitrary caps to improve TRS throughput, but I don't want to start that argument over again.