The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

A short video on ''sokushinbutsu", the self-mummifying ascetics of Japan.

Uh, I was searching things and I found this thread, I kinda wanted to revive the God Is Evil in fiction discussion because I find it very interesting.

To start, I dont really have a religion so far, but I have show a clear interest of Cao Dai theology and Kabbalistic worldviews. The religions who basically solve the Problem of evil in the easiest way, God is just not all powerful, but He is a pretty wise entity who want help us so we have to worship him and live according to His ideals to help him in his plan.

YHVH in the theological sense is weird, the character of the OT and the NT one are pretty different, and while the transition maked sense thanks to the Cultural development of the Jews, it dont really have a lot of consistency in a Western Monotheistic Worldview, seriously, that view only works with the NT God. And is the logical thing because the OT God was a "normal" Local Guardian Patriarch deity of the Jews. Even he wasnt omnipotent until the later ages.

Is interesting so far, personally, I like seeing the OT God as having a journey to become the strongest God ever and developing into a nicer deity with the time, like a extended version of the chinese Jade Emperor, but that is just my own weird view.

Christianity usually rationalizes this disconnect by painting God as a tough but fair deity who follows his own rules, and because of original sin had to invoke his toughness more than his fairness. NT God's characterization comes as the result of Jesus's sacrifice, since Jesus saved the world God can show his fairness and love more.

There's also a bit of this in the three persons of God, though you're not really supposed to see the persons as separate a lot of people think the persons of Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the "kinder" faces of God.

The problem of evil is also resolved by God following his own rules. Hence, he could do anything but won't because he is fair and wants to follow the rules.

edited 22nd Sep '17 10:30:00 AM by PhiSat

I know the rationalizations, but is just that simply saying who God isnt omnipotent just solve the situation way easier.

Even this days, most of christianity is pretty much "follow jesus, dont pay atention to his father...who is also him for some odd reason" the old testament god is pretty much a self aware force of nature.

Is not even clear if Jesus´God was YHVH.

Well, it's an argument that has been delved into deeply on this thread, but I'll give my two cents:

I think the fundamental issue is associating any level of human characteristics over a being in absolute control of the universe. Prophets are merely human attempts to put into words something that cannot be explained to someone who hasn't experienced the same thing. Leading to unfortunate consequences.

If Jesus was of divine stock, it could very well be he was merely a human element of a deeply alien entity.

edited 22nd Sep '17 11:30:51 AM by TerminusEst

Yeah, but most God Is Evil usages, had God being human like, just a asshole one, the "God will be too alien" argument falls flat.

Personally, from my readings of the Bible the OT and NT portrayals of god don't seem all that different to me, or at least the differences strike me as pragmatic more than anything. For that matter, some of the 'worst' acts of judgement in the Bible do come from the New Testament (Hell was introduced in the NT)

Having said that, I do kind of roll with the concept in my own story: God basically went so Knight Templar that he decided that Humans Are Bastards and deserve to be wiped out. However, he doesn't consider that an acceptable outcome, so he decided that the only real way to salvage this situation is to start offering humanity some shot at forgiveness.

Based on that interpretation it's more that he promised he wouldn't destroy humans after the great flood, and since he's a God of his word he decided forgiveness was more appropriate.

The weird thing about SMT , the main users of God Is Evil, is who basically, it associate Christianity with Global Illuminate like conspiracies, communism and greater good logic that downplay individual wishes. The great thing about SMT Law, is that it actually looks like a western fundamentalist´ biggest nightmare.

As writen for a group of heavily western inspired japanese writers, who despite being heavily inspired for the west, they always use a chance to show the Japanese worldview as the best (excepting the Collectivist part, because according to Atlus, Collectivism= BAD).

Seriously, the most Japanese a group look, the most sympathetic.

edited 22nd Sep '17 1:21:58 PM by KazuyaProta

I suppose to some extent it helps that egalitarianism is to some extent a part of Christianity's worldview. I mean, I'm a Christian Capitalist myself, but I do see where Christian socialists are coming from. Of course, Communist states have historically been-and continue to be-very staunch persecutors of Christianity.

I suppose it makes sense that the writers of SMT would generally be biased toward their own culture (I certainly am in my own stories); and it helps that there isn't a strong Christian presence in Japan.

@Phi Sat: Well, in my story God Is Good for the most part (the story discusses but ultimately defies God Is Evil), so how he's portrayed is that he wants to help humanity, so he first set out to purge the world of evil, but he began to decide that heavy handed tactics like that weren't going to work. So, instead he decided he was going to try to focus more on encouraging goodness than deterring evil.

Mind you, being merciful actually isn't that out of character to the old testament God (he does forgive the Israelites for turning their back on him quite a bit, and in the story of Jonah he gives a "The Reason You Suck" Speech to his prophet for wanting him to smite a group of people)

Japan has a very particular relationship with christianity. Christian missionaries in the 16th century were seeing success, but the higher-ups were afraid of their influence because they thought that christianity would make the peasants more loyal to "God" than their leaders. On top of that, it was seen as an invasive presence and the prelude to a full-out colonization effort, which to be fair wasn't entirely wrong.

Even besides that Japan has a habit of taking a lot of western ideas/visual motifs for mostly window dressing reasons.

When it comes to the seeming disconnect between God the Father of the OT and NT, Tertullian is the indispensable read. The heresiarch Marcion was the first major advocate of drawing a dualistic line between the two Creator deities, and of treating the NT as superseding the God of Israel. Even though Tertullian could be shamefully anti-Semitic at times, his Adversus Marcionem insisted on the unity of the OT and NT God the Father, and supported it with several important arguments Origen and Epiphanius also published some influential refutations of the Marcionite split.

The thing is the fact that they made it illegal with the penalty of death, it really in the end gives them no excuse for what they did to everyone. The fact that the remaining Christians had to have a secret society in order to keep the religion alive, really doesn't excuse the fears of colonization.

edited 22nd Sep '17 7:02:03 PM by firewriter

I don't think the persecution of christians in Japan was justified either. I was just giving some historical context.

Ok, Christianity is really seen as something exotic in Japan and often times they get a lot of things really wrong.

like the role of nuns?

The world is diverse and cultures undoubtedly effect foreign religions. Buddhism in Japan is very different from Buddhism in India. Christianity in Japan is very different from Christianity in Ireland.

I don't think this makes one "right" or "wrong." The only reason we might think the Roman Catholics are right is because they "won" over Marion. If Martin Luther hadn't had a bunch of power-hungry German aristocrats backing him, the Reformation ideals might have been lost to history too. Would that make all of Protestantism "wrong"?

I'm not religious, I guess I use the term "Spiritual" as much as it is a cliche. But I think this distance gives me some semblance of objectivity since I see value in each teaching and won't dismiss one as heretical.

For example Jesus in Japan is something I've given serious thought, too. Not that it happened but there's a reason there are so many different ideas of Jesus' race, gender, ethnicity... Hell, some Buddhists consider Jesus a Bodhisattva, a possibly fascinating notion to me.

I just love religious syncretism, I guess.

edited 23rd Sep '17 2:19:03 AM by Nikkolas

I'm wondering. How often does omnipotence (as in hitting the jackpot in the Superpowerlottery, gaining a combination of Reality Warper abilities with Immorality) get equated with godhood (as in being referred to as divine, worshiped, etc)?

Kind of feels you've answered your own question

I guess adherents want their top dog to be the biggest swinging dick in town

Gods are always defined by being "beyond" human. Some are relatively mundane about it (like Thor who ages and can be killed like a regular human, but is just absurdly strong) and are already worshiped.

There is nothing more "Beyond" than mankind than reshaping reality to your own will.

To Nikkolas, then is the weird thing of YHVH being conflated with the Jade Emperor in some asian syncretic cults. I personally love that idea.

Also, about the God Is Evil trope, it helps that histories are made to root for the Underdog and is very hard do a story where the demons can avoid being one.

Also, related to it, in most Law Vs Chaos stories, Law is the hardest to root to modern sensibilities unless Chaos is straight up insanity. And even then, Chaos might have get the Jerkass Woobie treatment. I said this because usually God Is Evil characters are Lawful Evil.

Plus, most writers who might use a judeochristian God (or an expy) and demons in modern day, tend to be very critical of mainstream society, usually belonging to counter-or-sub cultures.

Basically, Cool People Rebel Against Authority, and who is the biggest authority if not God?

The obsession with "rebellious heroes" is honestly one of the greatest problems in modern society. As long as you frame yourself as "standing up against authority" nowadays, people flock to your side. Terrible way to set up a morality system.

But, anyway, my belief regarding Theodicy has always echoed the Irenaean theory.

The fact that a lot of smart, influential writers define themselves as rebelds just make hard to convince people that being a rebel =/= good. I mean, everyone knows who society if flawed but apparently, all attempts to solve it = rebellion.

Also, Ironically, a lot of people see who The LACK of Rebellious heroes is the issue.

I hate to bring USA politics here. but given who is the most popular case here, I have find people of both right and left calling themselves Anti System rebelds, with calling the other side a Authoritarian goverment on making. It was great. It was better when Trump was the Underdog, the memes were better overall.

(Not for USA, so, I dont really care for him)

I wonder if there is a thread for a discussion like this? Talking about how people now believe who rebellion and freedom = The ultimate good.

It might be because I am a utilitarian, and thus ideas as freedom are just means to an end to me. But I have found that idealization of freedom as the ultimate good weird.

Also, I have used the Irenean Theodicy as part of my plot, but that is not how God/YHVH want act, In fact, the real God` plan is instaure a NWO like goverment and then put humanity in a Mind Hive to reach "Paradise".

In fact, God/The Angels argument to it, is basically a Take That! towards it, saying that yeah, some humans might find meaning and development in the "eternal struggle", but who that view is scarily close to Social Darwinism. The world is filled with pointless deaths, so is God duty solve it and help mankind to Earn Your Happy Ending. No matter how.

Cue, Utopia Justifies the Means conspiracy that never gives up.

edited 23rd Sep '17 2:15:12 PM by KazuyaProta