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Unclear Description: Humanoid Abomination get usage counts

 126 nrjxll, Fri, 15th Mar '13 12:54:05 PM Relationship Status: Not war
[up]That's exactly my point - while he may meet the strict letter-of-the-trope requirements, he's not intended as or depicted as one. And I'm not sure we'd even be arguing about it if it wasn't for the attempts to create a precise checklist of what makes a character qualify.

edited 15th Mar '13 12:54:43 PM by nrjxll

[up][up] The Reunion Files book for Advent Children goes to great lengths to emphasize how otherworldly and inhuman he has become after his second resurrection. That reads to me as authorial intent.

edited 15th Mar '13 1:41:25 PM by Arawn444

If a character started out human and then became something at least approaching an Eldritch Abomination, then I think it makes sense to evaluate them based on their depiction from the time after their transformation, separately from their depiction beforehand.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
[up] That's part of what I'm arguing. All the things that humanize Sephiroth - including his "It's nice to have a hometown" dialogue with Cloud and his Face-Heel Turn - happen prior to his merger with Jenova, and the series implies (and outright states in some cases) that what motivated his Face-Heel Turn in the first place was supplanted by Jenova's instinct/will after he assimilated it. Regardless, he might not a perfect example, but Jenova itself - who appears in a humanoid form throughout the series - fits better, as its motivations are completely alien and it has no humanizing qualities.

edited 15th Mar '13 2:43:05 PM by Arawn444

 130 Another Duck, Fri, 15th Mar '13 2:05:47 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I think the example as written currently works. Jenova does fit, as it takes the form (and body) of a human.
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[up] Thanks. I was the one who rewrote it in order to get rid of the clutter that was there and to provide an actual example from the game.

edited 15th Mar '13 2:42:33 PM by Arawn444

How about Elizabeth Greene from the Prototype series? She used to be human, but by the time of the game she's the REDLIGHT Virus in human form. I'd suggest Alex Mercer as well, seeing that he is the avatar of the BLACKLIGHT Virus and spends the first half of the game killing people wantonly, but even in the sequel he - like Sephiroth - retains too many vestiges of his humanity to perfectly qualify.

 133 Noaqiyeum, Sun, 17th Mar '13 10:49:06 AM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
They I removed from the examples intentionally, for the same reasons as The Thing. An intelligent shapeshifter producing Body Horror is not an abomination. The tone is entirely different.
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Fair enough. Just thought I'd ask. Also, would Sauron from The Lord of the Rings not qualify as a Humanoid Abomination, seeing how he was a malevolent supernatural entity from beyond space and time, and Tolkien described him as having "the form of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic, and as an image of malice and hatred made visible" and that he took "human" form as Annatar to seduce the elves and Numenoreans?

edited 21st Mar '13 10:51:04 PM by Arawn444

 135 Noaqiyeum, Thu, 28th Mar '13 1:39:02 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
I don't think so... there are a few times when he's described in abomination-like terms (I can think of one specific quote that's just eluding my memory at the moment), but I think by and large that's not that case.

EDIT: "Whispers of a nameless fear", that's the one I was thinking of.

edited 28th Mar '13 5:12:54 PM by Noaqiyeum

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[up][up]Sauron is a Fallen Angel, not an abomination. And he's only humanoid in the Third Age due to Shapeshifter Mode Lock.

He's from beyond space and time because all Ainur (angels) were created "before" and "outside" the world.

edited 28th Mar '13 4:11:28 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
 137 Noaqiyeum, Thu, 28th Mar '13 5:13:37 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
[up] Angels, fallen and not, can be abominations depending on the work. I don't think Sauron is, though.
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Yep. And to go down the criteria:

Is the character's humanoid form merely a disguise or covering for something more along the line of an Eldritch Abomination? Would seeing this true form drive a human mad? Is it too alien to comprehend?
Disguise, yes. Incomprehensible or drive humans mad, no. His "true form" is just his mind without a body. And that's is just as true of Gandalf. Also, he used to be able to make any disguise and was frequently animal-like.
Do they have other madness-inducing properties?
Sure, he mind-rapes and tortures people to try to make them obey him. And he dominates people with terror. But those are active things, not passive auras or something. And the result is usually an undead slave, not Go Mad from the Revelation.
Are the character's motives or behavior incomprehensible by any conceivable moral code? Are they somehow Above Good and Evil? Or conversely, if they are evil, is it more incidental than deliberate? (Meaning, is their goal something so far beyond us that harm to humans is a negligible side effect?)
No, he's quite clearly evil and quite deliberate about it, and his motivations are both comprehensible and explained in detail by the author (though mostly not in LOTR itself). He wants to be the Evil Overlord of the world.
Origins: Did they originate in some sort of Eldritch Location, such as another dimension or a rip in reality? Are they the offspring of, or otherwise created by, an Eldritch Abomination? Or are their origins unknown (due to Time Abyss, their alien nature, etc.)?
No, God made him along with the other Ainur in a heavenly choir (this also includes Gandalf).
Are they a subject of, or connected to, a Cult or Religion of Evil?
Yes, he likes to set those up. As scams. Though how many of them are openly evil isn't so clear. He keeps pretending to be God.
Do they use a Lovecraftian Superpower rather than conventional magic or typical superhero powers?
Nope. He likes volcanoes and necromancy.
Do they defy the fundamental laws of nature or magic?
Not even possible for the setting.
If they are a villain, is the tone of the work deeply pessimistic about the possibility of them being defeated completely?
No, the opposite (and he loses completely).
Is the genre of the story Cosmic Horror?
No, it's Fantasy.

edited 28th Mar '13 5:50:53 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
 139 Noaqiyeum, Tue, 2nd Apr '13 12:04:57 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
'Criteria' is a bit of a misnomer, as mentioned before, but yes, I agree.
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Freddy Krueger in Wes Craven's New Nightmare was commented out. Judging by the criteria, I don't think he qualifies.

The villain in that movie was not so much Freddy Krueger than it was an ancient Entity which had taken on the form of Freddy Krueger, and many monsters and evil beings before him. Judging by its lair, it originally came from Ancient Greece. It does't break down the laws of physics, doesn't originate from an Eldritch Location far beyond, and its motivations are not too alien to comprehend - it took on Freddy's form simply because it liked being evil. It's more along the lines of a shapeshifter demon, which is precisely what it looked like when it tooks on its real form just before it died.
 
 141 Septimus Heap, Wed, 3rd Apr '13 10:02:43 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Freddy Krueger was already qualified for Complete Monster. He has human desires. So he doesn't qualify for this trope.

[up] That's the thing though — the "Freddy Krueger" in this film wasn't Freddy. It was an ancient demon that just took on his form. Still, I don't think this character qualifies as an Abomination in spite of that.
 
 143 Noaqiyeum, Thu, 4th Apr '13 6:02:10 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
[up][up][up] Makes sense. I'll remove the comment.

EDIT: Going through the recent history. Can anyone comment on these examples? I remember removing some of them before, but clearly someone else disagrees.

  • The Moonchild/Antichrist from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a bald man that can grow into gigantic heights with eyes all over his body. He progressively looks worse as the heroes try to hack him apart, rendering him a fleshy pile that quickly regenerates into his original form. He also happens to be Harry Potter.
  • Solomon Grundy, a longtime enemy of Green Lantern, Batman and Superman, is a cross between plant elemental and an undead human, the remains the merchant Cyrus Gold who was murdered in the 1800s and dumped in Gotham Citys Murder Swamp, doomed to an eternity of reincarnation into different versions of Grundy. When one is destroyed, another Grundy rises from the swamp.
  • Both Swamp Thing and Man-Thing share a similar origin, they were both once men who died out in a mystical swamp, and rose again as half men/half plant humanoid beings. Or so Swamp Thing, belives. Alec Holland did die out in the swamps, and the being that rose from the mud was a plant elemental that absorbed his personality.
  • Lord English has a form that's hulking, green-skinned, skull-faced and outfitted with massive talons and spinning pool-ball eyes, but it's still fundamentally humanoid in shape. Lord English is also an incredibly powerful force of destruction who kills universes.

Also, who added Ben Drowned? o_o Seriously?

edited 4th Apr '13 6:20:32 PM by Noaqiyeum

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[up] I'd say the Moonchild and Lord English are the only ones that come close to qualifying. I say "close to" as I'm not at all familiar with either of them.

edited 6th Apr '13 9:51:02 PM by Arawn444

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Lord English is looking like he's not one, since we've seen his motivations and his childhood. He shares some elements of eldritch abominations in how he is slow, implacable, and inevitable, and how his abilities seem to break the rules of the setting, but I'd say he's not one because of the spoiled reason. Also, Homestuck is not a Cosmic Horror Story, so that's another point against him.

edited 7th Apr '13 11:37:55 AM by Scardoll

 146 Noaqiyeum, Sun, 7th Apr '13 3:02:57 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
My thought was that Lord English is consistently described as a demon (in contrast with the Horrorterrors, who are very clearly supposed to be Eldritch Abominations), albeit a somewhat unconventional one, and everyone in Homestuck breaks the rules of the setting pretty much constantly so that's really not much of an indicator. However, I'm not caught up, so I thought his inclusion could be based on information I haven't read yet. Apparently it's the other way around. :P
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 147 Noaqiyeum, Sun, 7th Apr '13 7:15:04 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Just added:

  • In Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC, Lord Harkon is featured as a seemingly ordinary man with unnerving eyes.. who has the ability to turn into a bat-like, vaguely human monstrosity. The player can gain the same power.

...sounds like a vampire and not an example.
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[up][up][up] In the rare cases where the Humanoid Abomination used to be human, wouldn't it be normal for them to have had some form of motivation and/or "childhood" before their transcendence? Like Septimus Heap said on Page 4, "Whether they've been something in the past doesn't affect their current status." and Arcades Sabboth on this same page: "If a character started out human and then became something at least approaching an Eldritch Abomination, then I think it makes sense to evaluate them based on their depiction from the time after their transformation, separately from their depiction beforehand." Note: I know nothing about Lord English other than what's been put on this page, and am operating under the likely-incorrect assumption he used to be human.

As for the genre, we seem to be forgetting about a sub-genre of Cosmic Horror called Lovecraft Lite. After all, Tropes Are Flexible, are they not?

[up] Yeah, he's just a really monstrous vampire and doesn't Count.

edited 12th Apr '13 9:11:25 PM by Arawn444

[up][up]Lord Harkon is a vampire. I'm pretty sure he doesn't apply here.

 150 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 8th Apr '13 4:48:47 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
[up][up] Lord English is sort of a Human Alien who turned into the Mobster Incredible Hulk with a billiards motif and became extremely powerful by playing a reality-warping computer game.

I'm trying to be careful not to kick out Lovecraft Lite by mistake.

Oh, and the Phantasm series has been re-added to the page. I forget, did we ever reach a conclusion about the Tall Man?

edited 8th Apr '13 4:49:39 PM by Noaqiyeum

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