The Scrappy Cleanup

Yeah, that's a bad entry. Since Fire Emblem Fates is a Japanese game, the Japanese fanbase needs to be taken into account as well.

A Japanese popularity poll has Peri as #20 among female characters. While I maintain popularity polls are bad at determining how much a character is hated, they do show she does have some fans that consider her their #1 favorite character, and that said fans are probably not a minority.

I took out the example and added an edit reason redirecting anyone who feels she qualifies to this thread.

edited 22nd May '17 1:40:56 PM by dragonfire5000

Popularity polls are only good for determining that somebody isn't a Scrappy (or Base-Breaking Character) when they rank high. Too many potential factors unrelated to hatred can lead to lower placements.

I do agree with the removal, though.

Agreed; I brought up the popularity poll to show that, at least in Japan, more people consider her their #1 favorite characters than those that consider the likes of Hana, Scarlet, Midori, and Anna (none of those four are Scrappies by any stretch of the definition).

Popularity polls should never be used to show how much a character is hated, since they only tell you how many people consider a character their #1 favorite, and says nothing about whether the people voting actually hate any of the other characters.

Cut out a line in YMMV.Fire Emblem Fates that tried to label Corrin as the Scrappy. They're a Base-Breaking Character at worst, and even that is highly debatable since:

• Corrin is half of one of the game's more popular ships, Corrin/Azura. Some other popular ships also feature Female Corrin.
• Both Corrins placed relatively high on the Heroes poll, which covers the entire franchise. Female Corrin got 5th place for females, and while I can't remember Male Corrin's placement I'm pretty sure it was in the top 12 males. iirc Female Corrin also placed first in a Fates-centric poll.

edited 22nd May '17 5:32:41 PM by Karxrida

Not to mention that, in the Japanese popularity poll, Female Avatar is the most popular female character, while Male Avatar is the fifth most popular male character. That sort of popularity in their home country means they're disqualified from being Scrappies.

Noticed that Suguru Kamoshida is in the SMT/Persona scrappy page. Problem with that; he's utterly despicable yes, but that's the entire point of his character. It even mentions as such he's a well-done villain. A Hate Sink can only qualify as The Scrappy if they're poorly done or hated for the wrong reasons, ie people want to see them just go away more than comeuppance

Deleted since it fails to explain why he is unintentionally hated, and the Complete Monster potholes (largely against wiki policy) suggests it was made by one less than aquatinted to the way this wiki works.

Also, I want to bring up the following:

• TheScrappy.Mass Effect: Ambassador Donnel Udina has an obnoxiously aristocratic voice, gets overly angry when talking to the Council, sidelines you when you're inconvenient, sells you out just to maintain public relations, and acts as an appeaser for the Citadel Council if he's selected to be the human representative. Bioware did seem to be somewhat aware of just how truly obnoxious he was, and included the option of having Anderson punch him in the face, which, needless to say, was picked far more often than the other choice. Mass Effect 3 manages to do some degree of rescuing, as he's your staunchest ally in the beginning of the game, believing Shepard and working around the clock for the plan. Later in the game, he attempts a coup by working with Cerberus, but even then, his actions come off not as being an ass, but by being overly desperate to end the war.

I'm not seeing how it's unintentional, especially given that the game gives you the option to get back at him. Cut?

I dont know in ME 1 he didn't seem like he was crafted to be a scrappy, just a jerkass with a side of Jerk Ass Has A Point on more than one occasion. His rival in the plot, Anderson, shills him on multiple occasions. I think it was unintentional on how much he would be hated, they had options where you can side with him.

They switched writers for ME 3 which is where I think he stopped.

edited 1st Jun '17 8:31:31 AM by Memers

If he has other qualities than what falls under Hate Sink, the example needs to be rewritten, because I fail to see how most of those traits aren't meant to alienate the players.

This falls under Rescued from the Scrappy Heap more than The Scrappy, but I have a question about this entry in Fire Emblem Gaiden:

• Rescued from the Scrappy Heap:
  • From a gameplay standpoint, the remake has done this to several characters, giving them better growths, spell lists, and stats. Averted with Clive though.
  • From a story standpoint, the remake does this to nearly everyone. Most characters in the original only had one or two lines, resulting in Gaiden's non-protagonist cast being considered among the least memorable in the entire series. Echoes not only fleshes out the characters' personalities, adds full voice acting and support conversations, it also does what very few other FE games do: has characters continue to comment on plot scenes past their recruitment. This is particularly notable for Gray and Tobin and Mae and Boey, who go from bland, flat characters to Those Two Guys of their respective routes.
    • On the villains' side, Jedah went from a fully straight example of the series' Sinister Minister trope (read: Generic Doomsday Villain) to one of its more complex portrayals.

My understanding is that to be Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, you have to be The Scrappy at some point. So does this entry fit? Keep in mind that Generic Character =/= Definite Scrappy.

For the first example, I think it's permitted if they previously qualified for Tier Induced Scrappy. Though the write-up needs a bit expansion since it's generalizing a bit.

The others are shoehorns.

edited 5th Jun '17 6:59:52 PM by Karxrida

Yeah, they have to have been hated one way or another to be saved. Tier Induced Scrappy is included in that.

I took it out and left a note directing people to come here if they want to contest it.

speaking of Fire Emblem, I'd like your opinion on that entry about the Fire Emblem Mystery Of The Emblem page : (and sorry if I'm terrible at using links or quotes, never used the forum before)

• The Scrappy: Kris, the Avatar from New Mystery, is easily the least popular of the series' three Avatars (with the most charitable thing said about them usually being "At least they're not as much of an idiot as Conquest Corrin"), largely due to the general opinion that adding in an extremely a powerful player surrogate to a pre-existing story and having them usurp many of the feats and accomplishments of pre-existing characters was a stupid idea, like something out of a bad fan fiction. Kris's successors have been better received because they, by virtue of not being in remakes, were made part of stories designed spotlight from the ground up to include them.

This feels like whoever wrote this is just Complaining About Shows You Dont Like , stopping just short of calling the Fire Emblem Mystery Of The Emblem Avatar a Mary Sue. There's also a completely gratuitous jab at Corrin, and the whole point feels a bit off for a Fire Emblem game... I mean, it's not like the player character was railroaded into killing a major antagonist instead of somdeboy else in the original game.

At first, I tried to rephrase the entry to at least keep the main point and alleviate the blatant complaining, but now I'm reading this, I see there is a clear need for the character to be near-universally hated to qualify. I personnally had no issue with the character when I played the game, but I never interacted much with the fanbase to see whether or not the character is hated enough to qualify for The Scrappy, so I can't determine by myself whether or not the Entry is worth keeping or should just be cut.

As of now, the rephrased entry looks like that :

• The Scrappy: Kris, the Avatar from New Mystery, isn't liked much by some parts of the fanbase, who feels his inclusion as a powerful game-breaker in an preexisting story makes him steal the spotlight from the preexisting cast, unlike the other avatars of the series, who were present in their games since the beginning.

Any thoughts ?

edited 6th Jun '17 12:27:17 AM by Yumil

If you feel the need to use such weak terms as "isn't liked much by some parts of the fandom", then it's probably not an example.

The original example also has the same problem, since "least liked of this particular group of characters" doesn't mean The Scrappy. The jab at the other character also points away from The Scrappy, since that implies the character isn't that bad.

If you feel the need to use such weak terms as "isn't liked much by some parts of the fandom", then it's probably not an example.

> yeah, I realized that, but again, I don't feel like i can say that I know what the fanbase thinks of the character, so maybe they actually do hate it, and in that case it's me that should rephrase that part.

I guess i'll go for the "delete it and if it was a real case of that trope, then Wiki Magic will probably write it back someday in a convincing way"option, unless someone more knowledgable (am I using the right word ? I hope so)than me can attest the character is indeed hated by the fanbase.

edited 6th Jun '17 5:24:00 AM by Yumil

If you delete it, make sure you include a link to this thread in the edit reason and let people know to come here and discuss things before re-adding the example back in.

And yeah, I'm for cutting it. Kris is certainly a Base-Breaking Character, but I'm not seeing anything that makes them hated by the vast majority of the fanbase, including the fans from Japan.

edited 6th Jun '17 8:05:02 AM by dragonfire5000

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who unironically likes Kris as a character in the FE fandom, even among those who like FE 12. Usually whenever I see people complain about whatever faults that game has, it has to do with Kris and how "the game bends over backwards to make them seem godly while making Marth and others look worse". So I'd lean towards keeping them as a Scrappy IMHO.

I definitely agree that the original post was too vitriolic, though.

I happen to unironically like Kris, but the important thing we need to know is how popular Kris is in Japan. If Kris is not hated by the vast majority of fans in Japan, then Kris can't be The Scrappy, since Americans Hate Tingle and The Scrappy are mutually exclusive.

I also happen to unironically like Kris. I found this on kantopia : https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2017/02/13/fe111-and-fe312-archanea-games-choose-your-legends-poll-results-analysis/ , and kris ranks 12/91 (20/91 for female kris) (it's a FE Heroes poll, so their overall placement is 284 and 400 ( on a poll of ~1000+ characters, i'd say it's not bad)), and overall, it means 1000 people consider it their favorite character of the series. It's a similar ranking to what Peri got in the fates exclusive poll mentionned above.

It's not completely conclusive considering the nature of the poll, and it's not exclusive to japan (though it's safe to assume that since the game was never officially released outside japan, the majority of the votes for fe12 are from japan), but it seems the character is appreciated by at least a portion of the fanbase.

edited 10th Jun '17 2:53:23 AM by Yumil

"Unironically" is meaningless here. It doesn't matter how someone likes a character. If someone says they "ironically like" a character, rather than that they hate the character, that's a vote against the character fitting The Scrappy.

I removed Bloo from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends as he is NOT the scrappy, but I'm pretty sure someone is going to add him back in. Bloo is a Base Breaker, as he has his fans & detractors.

This just showed up on YMMV.Moana:

• The Scrappy: Heihei is generally disliked by viewers for contributing virtually nothing to the plot. Animal sidekick characters in other Disney films usually help out somewhat, but the only thing Heihei does is stare at the camera, act stupid, and provide pointless slapstick.

I'm not super familiar with the nitty-gritty requirements of The Scrappy— I mostly lurk on this thread— but I can't say I've noticed a whole lot of Heihei hate, and the tone of this entry is pretty complain-y. I'm inclined to cut it, but wanted to bring it here for consensus first.

@High Crate: I've seen a few people who dislike HeiHei, but for the most part Moana fans seem to like him. So yeah, I'd agree with cutting the example.

• The Scrappy: Many of the comic's critics hate Lightbringer for his Marty Stu tendencies early on and representing some of Linkara's... questionable views. However, this doesn't seem to be the case in Crossoverlord or other rewrites of the character.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Scrappy supposed to be for when the fans of a work hate the character, not the work's detractors?

Cut Heihei, and include a link to this thread in the edit reason telling people to discuss it here instead of simply re-adding it.