The Scrappy Cleanup

Roy is honestly weird because he's popular for his Smash incarnation, which most people are more familiar with than his canon counterpart and is effectively a different character. He's still a bad unit you're forced to use the entire game.

I think Kris is a legit keep. The write up on the Akaneia YMMV page does a good job of explaining the issues with them.

Link again: TheScrappy.Fire Emblem

edited 31st Jan '17 9:24:01 PM by Karxrida

RE: Dragonfire 5000

Grima's been there for over a year, and you didn't make an issue of until now.

I've given you proof, after proof, both official polls, voting on Fire Emblem sites, and topics on the top Fire Emblem sites. You haven't proven he's not hated, and as mentioned the Patroklos example already showed that a hyped up main character being lower then characters without any importance, who aren't an Ensemble Dark Horse, does mean they're disproportionately unpopular.

I've given and given, yet for an entire page straight, all you say is "more is needed." When have you given anything as proof for your argument?

As for Roy, cut, he's only a Tier Induced Scrappy.

edited 31st Jan '17 9:32:04 PM by Monsund

Being a crappy unit is not everything, or we'll have Diedre and Nino.

Roy's the Lord. He's mandatory for the entire game.

Then again I've never played Binding Blade and my info is largely secondhand. But the hate towards him I've seen seems consistent. Don't have sources for that though.

edited 31st Jan '17 9:33:02 PM by Karxrida

RE: Karxida

Roy is liked by a fair amount of fans for reasons outside of gameplay. Also Smash bros fans.

He's definitely a Tier Induced Scrappy, I'll say.

And I'll say it again and again: you have yet to prove that the links you provide represent a vast majority of the entire Fire Emblem fanbase. That means that you don't have enough people hating Grima for it to be The Scrappy. And before you bring up that poll again, I remind you that it's not a good indication of a character's hatedom.

I don't really know much about Roy to say whether or not he counts as The Scrappy. I do know he's got quite a few fans, though I'm not sure how many of those are from Super Smash Bros.. Do we know if he's actually hated in Japan, or if he's got enough fans to constitute a Base-Breaking Character.

Personally, I say cut him for now until we can get better sources on how much of a hatedom he really has.

So right now, seems like we have a few people here okay with cutting most of the examples on the page. Besides Kris (which I have no idea how much of a hatedom they have in Japan), anyone else we're keeping on that page?

RE: Dragonfire 5000

You missed the mentions of Patroklos, main character of Soul Calibur V, being ranked below even minor characters like Dampierre being used as evidence of his scrappy status in the past. Grima, and Validar, like Patroklos are major characters responsible for much actions in the story. Being ranked below random oneshot mooks who themselves aren't too popular is pretty much the same as the Patroklos example.

Those are all the top Fire Emblem sites with the majority of people saying they feel those two characters were badly written, Dragonfire. if that isn't hated, then what JRPG character is?

Also almost every example has defenders including Scrappy. So a few people liking Grima/Validar while the majority do not, still qualifies.

Also on the subject of Peri, here is a link to the most disliked playable character in Fates.

edited 31st Jan '17 10:01:15 PM by Monsund

Again, the sites you linked to only show that a couple people in the Western hemisphere dislike Grima, and as mentioned by others, they are not the vast majority of the fanbase. And even if the vocal hatedom was a majority of the Western fanbase, you still have to prove that the vast majority of the Japanese fanbase hates Grima to prove that it isn't a case of Americans Hate Tingle. Which, again, the poll doesn't count because nothing in that poll indicates hatred of a character whatsoever.

And as for that link you included, you need to prove that it's a vast majority of the fanbase that actually hates Peri. And no, "lots of people on reddit, gamefaqs, and Serenes Forest" does not count as "the vast majority of the fanbase," only "a lot of vocal fans that probably consist of mostly Western fans."

So as for the Scrappy page for Fire Emblem, any consensus reached? Personally, I'd go for taking out every entry except the bit about Iago and Hans, if only because those two were discussed here. Though if the claim about Iago being fairly popular in Japan is true, we might have to look him over again.

RE: Dragonfire 5000

They show the majority of posters on the top sites dislike those Grima, and Validar. If the western fanbase hated Grima+Validar, and the Japanese fandom didn't care for either to the point of preferring mooks, they both would qualify.

You ignored the Soul Calibur case... Main characters, and hyped up Big Bad aren't supposed to be that low on those kinds of polls. Something which I've told you again and again.

The western fanbase at least seems to dislike Peri, have to do more researc on her.

There's more proof for Grima and Validar being hated then Hans or Iago. Iago even apparently got votes for being a DLC character by some Japanese fans.

edited 31st Jan '17 10:20:34 PM by Monsund

Again, those top sites do not conclusively represent the vast majority of the entire Fire Emblem fanbase. Therefore, you can't just depend on those alone to determine whether Grima is The Scrappy.

And no, even if the Japanese fanbase didn't care much for Grima, that's not enough to be The Scrappy. Remember, The Scrappy is about a character being hated. Indifference =/= hatred. If anything, Japanese people being "meh" at Grima while the Western audience hates it would still count as Americans Hate Tingle or Base-Breaking Character.

And I'm telling you it being a "top site" isn't enough to prove that it represents vast majority of every Fire Emblem fan in the world.

As for the Patroklos example, we might have to pull that one in here as well since there's no indication that the Facebook poll took the Japanese fanbase into account. If he has enough fans in Japan, he may be a case of Americans Hate Tingle.

edited 31st Jan '17 10:28:03 PM by dragonfire5000

Already mentioned Serenesforest is the top Fire Emblem site by far. And yes, it is a decent amount of evidence for what majority of western fans think.

How come you haven't responded to the Soul Calibur poll being used as evidence for the lack of hate towards the main character(Patroklos)?

Just like with Soul Calibur V, Meh is an unintended negative reaction to a Big Bad thats hyped up throughout the game and does several heinous actions including killing the heroes. Especially when many hate him. If Japan is meh, and people overseas hate the character, then yes that is qualification.

On another topic, Tingle is listed in the Scrappy Zelda despite Japanese popularity.

edited 31st Jan '17 10:31:10 PM by Monsund

If Tingle is listed as The Scrappy despite being very popular in Japan, then that's a misuse of The Scrappy. That would be Americans Hate Tingle, not The Scrappy.

So would anyone else on this thread object if I got rid of all the examples above the Fire Emblem Fates section, seeing as how almost none of them were discussed here and are badly written? If you feel like a particular section should stay, please mention it.

As for the Fire Emblem Fates section, was Mikoto ever actually discussed on this thread at all?

edited 31st Jan '17 10:39:01 PM by dragonfire5000

"Other examples does this" is not an argument if those examples are wrong. We haven't gone through the entire site, people keep misusing the trope, so lots of examples are plain wrong or lack proper context.

Popularity polls are not proof. We require The Scrappy to be at the very end of the negative scale. A popularity poll is from zero to max on the positive end, where zero is "couldn't care less", and max is "everyone loves the character". It doesn't cover the negative side at all.

"Most hated character" polls can be proof, on the other hand, since they're explicitly about it.

Specific sites are not proof. The casual fanbase is in almost all cases far larger than the active community. Most sites only show the active community, which is the loud minority. Many sites put together, especially an offical site, can give an indicator, but that's still not proof.

Also needs to be said, we're much more strict about villains, because those are usually Hate Sinks, which means you need to clarify the difference between hating the character because of what she does in the story, and hating her because of how she ruins the story. The Scrappy and Hate Sink can overlap, but we need to be very clear about the difference.

Tingle is Americans Hate Tingle, not The Scrappy.

To be fair, it does seem pretty unambiguous that people didn't care for these villains because they were "boring and generic", not because of what they did in the story. The question is whether that translates into hatred.

edited 1st Feb '17 4:30:58 AM by nrjxll

Which we've seen thre pages of "discussion" about.

Septimus, apologies for the long back-and-forth argument with Monsund.

To everyone else in this thread, let me ask again: would anyone else on this thread object if I got rid of all the examples above the Fire Emblem Fates section, seeing as how almost none of them were discussed here and most of them don't properly convey that the character is hated by a vast majority of the fanbase? Anyone who thinks a character should be on the page can be directed here to make a case for the character.

I'm not opposed to it.

I'm neutral.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Sorry for the double-post, but after some thought, I think it might be better not to do a mass purge of the Fire Emblem Scrappy page and instead go through the examples one by one to see whether or not they qualify.

First up, Beowulf from the Jugdral games:

Now, this seems to be a bit of a mess. The first part seems to be more fitting for Die for Our Ship, and there also seems to be a slight dig at "Beowulf defenders." The bit about Raquesis being a Scrappy in her own right is a Zero Context Example, and nothing in the example makes a convincing case that the characters are hated by a majority of the fanbase.

I say we cut this one. Thoughts?

That's Die for Our Ship at best. I say kill it.

edited 2nd Feb '17 10:45:07 PM by Karxrida

Never seen any of that hate against Beowulf. So cut

As for the Rest:

• Renault:,A little back of hate in the day, but not so much anymore. Will be hard evidence of universal hatred.
• Sonia: Most say she's Love to Hate. Will be hard finding evidence of universal hatred
• Eliwood: Has his haters, but has his lovers too. Will be hard finding evidence of universal hatred for him.
• Ninian: Gets some Die for Our Ship but is otherwise popular.
• Zealot: Just a bit of Tier Induced Scrappy, thats it. Will be finding evidence of universal hatred will be hard.
• Wendy and Sophia: As mentioned, its only in gameplay so Tier Induced Scrappy
• Makalov: Gets some hatred, but others Find him Love to Hate. People also like his use as a unit. Finding evidence of universal hatred will be hard
• Oliver: We already agreed to cut.
• Dawn Brigade: People like backstories for the Dawn Brigade, they just wish it showed up more. Cut.
• Matthis: I've seen hatred for him, but evidence of universal hatred will be difficult to find.
• Ricken: Evidence of universal hatred for him cannot be found.
• Nowi: Definitely exceedingly controversial overseas, but liked by many in Japan.
• The Taguel: Certainly unpopuar, but evidence of universal hatred can't be found yet.
• Yukimaru: Definitely the least popular, and I've seen many hate him, but no signs of universal hatred.
• Mikoto: Like Yukimaru unpopular and has some haters, but universal hatred is very debatable.
• Hans And Iago: No evidence of Universal hatred. Iago also has some fans in Japan who voted him as wanted for a DLC character.

edited 3rd Feb '17 3:11:57 PM by Monsund

Neither are examples.

• Grima being a blatant clone of a previous character and contradicting/retconning established canon are non-factors when Awakening had a huge Newbie Boom that brought in a large amount of people who probably don't give a shit about that stuff. The poll is also irrelevant for reasons already stated multiple much earlier in this thread and ATT.
• Validar is a pretty standard villain and the entry reads like one person's complaining about how the game uses Black-and-White Morality (the Grima entry has a similar issue). Also includes stuff about the Grimleal, an entire group when groups cannot qualify for The Scrappy. Poll is unimportant because yadda yadda.

Delete both.

edited 3rd Feb '17 5:01:55 PM by Karxrida