Rose Guns Days

Now that the first translation patch is out on Witch Hunt's site, everyone can get a shot a 7th Expansion's new and tasty game! We're not gonna discuss it on the When They Cry page forever, are we?

I've read only the first chapter so far. The "combat system" is relatively easy and quite repetitive for the few fights I had, but it's only the beginning. I still don't quite understand how the points are counted though… the tutorial doesn't say much about that…

I like the drawing style, it gives the impression that the coloring is handmade. Reminds me of Okami, kind of.

The musics are nothing like what we were used to back in When They Cry (bar Monochrome Clock and Like the Gale maybe), but it's still 7th Expansion alright. They get the job done in that department, and very well.

The story setting is depressing as hell even from a non-Japanese point of view, and yet the tone seems surpringly light-hearted… that must be because of the main character…

edited 31st Jan '13 1:18:15 PM by Lyendith

Just finished chapter 2 I think, really enjoying it so far. You're right about the depressing. The story is very melancholic, but all the characters try their best to enjoy themselves and do the best they can despite everything.

Leo is a pretty awesome protagonist. Also Battler Philip Butler sure hits some familiar notes, both personality and appearance wise.

I suppose without an overarching mystery there won't be as much to discuss as When They Cry, but it still seems like an entertaining story in its own right.

Apparently Season 2 is already out, and Witch Hunt has started on the translation.

Haven't gotten a chance to hear this song in game yet, but a nice spin on something familiar. [1]

Our page on it could probably use some fleshing out, on that note. I'm no good at editing though.

edited 31st Jan '13 1:19:03 PM by Oroboro

Awesome, we have a thread for this now!

I've finished season 1 already because I am insane. I really like it; it certainly doesn't have the mystery element of his previous works, but the themes are certainly worth discussing. I'll go into more detail later when I'm actually awake, but it does make you think, just in a different way from When They Cry.

Also, I note that we've got the whole "modern character narrating a story from the past" element here... I wouldn't entirely put it past Ryukishi to pull some sort of narration trick again, but I don't think it's too likely for RGD.

By the way, what are everyone's thoughts on Keireiji? He's overwhelmingly charismatic; I have to admit I got sucked in by the sheer awesome and even had him in my top three characters in the game until he went all mafia boss on us. I'll talk more about my own thoughts once others have finished... and once I'm awake.

(I fail at spoiler tags. Nobody saw that.)

edited 31st Jan '13 11:50:20 PM by PluralForce

I don't know what to think of Keireiji since the trailer version stops before that. TT__TT It's too short, damnit, that's cruel. I thought the demo would have the whole 1st volume as with Umineko… granted, in Umineko the entire Episode 1 was the prologue so…

But I agree that the themes overall are interesting. How would I react if the people, culture and even language of my country were marginalized in a few years? Not well I think, even without the mafia around…

The story has some kind of old school feel, with damsels in distress and Card Carrying Villains, but Rose seems to not be totally incompetent and Leo is a really fun character. Sure there probably won't be any mysteries, fake narration, Mind Screw or a psychologically maladjusted cast, but a simple story can also be pleasant from time to time.

R7 does seem to have drawn some sprites, notably Claudia.

Also, I retained this quote from a military:

Sorry, but I'll have to use that again.◊

edited 3rd Feb '13 1:48:56 PM by Lyendith

I think there maybe a kernal of truth to that statement hidden among some lies. The simple part is the lie.

English is a Class 5 language, namely due to issues with grammer rules and spelling. Possibly due to its origins as a bastardized algamation of two languages, one of which is "Germanic". To put that into perspective, Japanese is IIRC a Class 4 (or was it three) language in terms of difficulty to learn. Mandarin Chinese is either Class 4 or Class 5. French IIRC is either Class 1 or Class 2 as is a lot of languages in the "Romantic" language family, which includes Spanish, Portugese, and Itallian.

The kernal of truth may come from the logic part of the statement.

English is the official language of science. Maybe because scientific terms seem to translate well into english. I really have no clue why, its just a guess. On a side note: The official language of diplomacy is French.

I knew it all along. I suspected there was something terribly wrong with that guy. I don't why, but for some reason, I seem to have this blood hound like sense when it comes to hidden evil or wrongness. I don't know if its some sort of "sixth sense" or "mind's eye" or whatever you call it.

edited 1st Feb '13 9:25:27 PM by magnum12

I have to admit I cracked up at that "English is the most simple and logical language in the world" line. If any of the people that soldier is talking to believe that propaganda, I would just reply with this poem and then laugh.

So clearly you're smarter than I am for not falling for his nice guy façade

Good god... if we make people read this poem out loud and then write down Zero Punctuation reviews, we have a perfect Training from Hell to learn English!

edit: Finally proceeding, I'm in the middle of Chapter 3, and I'm getting quite good at brawling.

I finally met Keireiji outside of the tutorial. I like the guy, his enthusiasm is communicative. And that's the only Japanese character who didn't give up his name, which gives him some charisma.

Phillip Battler is likeable and has something of a Magnificent Bastard at the same time. I don't really know what to think of him yet, but he's not going to be a noble, disinterested protector, that's for sure.

Meryl is my favorite Primavera girl so far. I love her design, her personality, and her little monologue about the "ladies of the night" is quite touching. And she kicks ass, in every possible meaning.

Leo is incredible… a bit too much maybe. But just as I was starting to dislike his overwhelming perfection, he started to show a bit of hidden depth at the beginning of Chapter 3, notably in his interaction with Keireiji. That certainly doesn't hurt.

What elso to say? The story hasn't really taken off yet, it's more a collection of Leo's daily adventures. But it's 7th Expansion, so I'm used to it.

Regarding the BGM, listening to the one called "Black Knight" I wondered if someone had put an Umineko music in the wrong folder. ò.Ô Hell, it even has bits of Happiness of Marionette in it!

edited 5th Feb '13 11:28:59 AM by Lyendith

Double post… I'm in the middle of Chapter 4 now (I read realy slowly, don't I… ò.Ô), just after Rose refused to obey Caleb.

Now that's becoming interesting. Alfred was pretty ridiculous as a villain but Caleb is on whole other level in terms of aura and depth. Of course his speech doesn't make sense when you think 2 seconds about it, as Rose pointed out, but he delivers it with so much presence that you would want to believe him. Well, maybe he is sincere about his goal; I'll find that out soon enough. Either way, he's certainly awesome.

Butler turns out… well, as I expected. The guy basically works for himself.

I'm a bit doubtful about Meijiu… he's very nice and likeable but… that's what bugs me. After all his speech about helping your fellow countrymen first, he still went out of his way to help Japanese people, in a problem that didn't really involve him or Chinatown. I'm not sure he's entirely trustworthy.

In any case, I'm starting to really like this. Things are finally getting serious.

My fighting score is getting pretty high (2 million something, with a gold star), although I don't know if I'm above or below average…

PS: I was wondering but… didn't one of the artists work for Tite Kubo in the past? Some characers like Richard, Wayne or Meijiu really remind me of Bleach for some reason…

edit: Finished Season 1, at last! Dat… Cliffhanger… TT^TT That's too cruel.

Also, this◊.

That was fast. ò.Ô

edited 10th Feb '13 9:10:43 AM by Lyendith

I don't really see a Bleach influence in the character designs, myself. Then again I'm not exactly much of a fan, so who knows.

And wow, that's really fast for a manga to come out. Definitely looking forward to it, though.

Personally, I read Caleb as a definite Well-Intentioned Extremist. The way the narrative presents it is like... his goals aren't necessarily wrong, and in fact are very similar to Rose's, but it's his methods that are wrong. I find that very interesting, and less black and white than just "good vs bad."

I really like Leo as a main character, personally. I like the way Ryukishi very slooowly hints at his background. Slowly enough that I found it rather maddening when I was reading. In a good way, I mean.

The first few chapters do kind of hit you over the head with the whole "Japanese people have it terrible" thing a bit too much, in my opinion. It was like the narration felt compelled to remind us every few lines that life sucks for a Japanese person in Japan. Thankfully, it stopped just as I was getting severely annoyed with it, so that was a blessing.

Well, that's just a vague feeling but… Meijiu for example, reminds me of Szayel Aporro◊.

It seems to happen often actually… a narrative shtick that stops just as it is getting annoying. Like Leo's uncarring attitude or Rose's constant self-flagellation. I also didn't really like that passage where the narration directly adresses the reader to tell them that Rose's choice was the right one. That's something I would prefer to figure out myself, and that's very un-Ryūkishi-like I would say. Hopefully that won't happen again.

I've fleshed out the trope page a bit during the past week, and done a bit of Entry Pimp; I don't know who put the images of the Season 2 characters but it seems there is yet another artist. It's surprising that all these different styles manage to blend so well.

edited 16th Feb '13 3:17:35 AM by Lyendith

Yeah, it does seem to do the whole "beat you over the head with something and then stop just as it's getting annoying" bit a lot. And the direct address to the reader mostly just threw me out of the story.

It is really interesting how all of the many art styles manage to blend together so well, isn't it? I think it has to do with the coloring.

Also, I just want to note that the backgrounds are very distracting to anyone who's at all familiar with the city of Paris XD I kept thinking, "Hey, I remember that place!" If I remember then I might try to pinpoint and photograph some of the locations when I'm there over the summer.

At first I thought they were taken in Bordeaux. But I remember that R7 went to an even in Paris last year… he probably took some photos on the way.

Damn, why can't we delete our messages on this forum? It's annoying to have to double post…

Anyway, I was wondering about the implications of the Alternate History in RGD… what we are shown is only the americanised Japan, but when you think about it, that different outcome of the war must have had huge consequences internationally: since the atomic bomb was never used, nuclear dissuasion has no meaning, and thus the Cold War may have turned into an overt conflict… that would be really interesting to develop, although it can't take too much place in the story either.

Finished up chapter 1. I don't know how to get a straight flush or whatever. And I have no idea what my player rank is supposed to be. What does three golden arrows have to do with anything?

I hope Claudia doesn't show up much. She reminds me of Maria.

edited 22nd Feb '13 7:45:06 AM by Arha

… what? ò.Ô Where in hell does she remind you of that?!

edited 24th Feb '13 9:02:17 AM by Lyendith

I dunno. She just does.

Couldn't continue getting the scores I wanted in the Alfred fight. Much too quick.

This track sounds a bit like Happiness of Marionette. Chapter 3 finished.

edited 25th Feb '13 2:57:23 PM by Arha

I've started to read Season 2 in Japanese. I'm surprised to realize that I can understand roughly 80% of what's written.

Apparently, the after-ending sequence of Season 1 was like a preview of Season 2's first chapter (numbered "chapter 6"). It begins with Rose waking up in Chinatown, in a restaurant held by Meiju, and meeting with the whole Primavera team, except Wayne and Claudia who were captured. We have some interesting discussions with Meiju about China and Japan, and a little backstory for Miguel. Leo teaches Rose to fire guns and the two seem to get a bit closer. We also have a little demonstration of Meiju's badassery. Meanwhile, Caleb has gathered 100 million, but some defectors start to appear in his gang, and Butler has already prepared an assassination plan to get rid of him. A seemingly small but nice element: a random traitor mook chews Caleb out about the nonsense of his actions before being executed… and it actually has an effect on Caleb. That kind of things doesn't happened that often. You can feel that Caleb is actually not so confident about what he is doing. Also, I haven't fully understood that part, but it seems Meiju is planning to assassinate Wayne or Claudia, while merrily chatting with the Primavera team. I like that character.

At the point I am, the new characters have yet to appear, but the current ones have some nice development. The events are setting up, like the calm before the storm. It's really pleasant to read.

edited 4th Aug '13 1:11:57 PM by Lyendith

Done! I've finished Season 2 at last.◊

And I'm starting to really, really like this series. So far the 1948 part isn't "epic" by any means and it doesn't end on a breathtaking cliffhanger like Season 1. However we realize that we are at the top of the "emotional rollercoaster" that R7 affectionates: everything seems to be alright, the atmosphere on Primavera's side is lighter and more optimistic than ever… yet we are clearly announced that the downfall will be brutal. So even though I was surprised to see Season 2 end on a peaceful dialogue rather than a big action scene, I found this ending really effective and am impatient to read Season 3.

As for the characters, the Wandering Dogs are funny and likeable, each one of the 4 has their own charm. Although admittedly I'm a bit reserved on Rapunzel… it's kind of the same issue I had with Leo: she's a bit too perfect. Except she isn't as funny as Leo. But the idea of making her regain her memories bit by bit, through the situations she's put in, is rather good, and I'm really curious to discover where she comes from and why she ended up here.

I also really like… Hsiao-Lan? That's the spelling apparently… anyway, both her design and her character instantly hit on me. And like Rapunzel, the mystery around her is very well maintained.

I have just a few regrets: first, there are very few new musics. Those who appear are very good, but at some point I felt like I was always hearing the same ones. I think Umineko had a lot more musics than that, even in Episode 2…

Another thing that irritated me is Caleb and Miguel's Disney Death. I had found both of their "death scenes" very well done, so seeing them alive and kicking in 1948 is a bit annoying. It's understandable for Caleb as the coup de grâce wasn't shown, but Miguel didn't look very alive with all those wounds. Well, with that I understand why their defeat was in the middle of Season 2 rather than the end of Season 1: seeing them back alive would have been even more awkward.

But well, the scene of their reunion with Rose is still very pleasant to read in itself, and they'll probably have some kind of role in the future − there would have been no point in making them come back otherwise.

Overall, I found this episode better written than S1. It felt better paced and the characters are more interesting − Rose (whose Japanese name is revealed) no longer annoys me, for example; she even makes me laugh sometimes! Same with Wayne, who gains a nice comically serious side. It's a shame that Meryl and Stella take a backseat though. The "touchy" themes of the series are explored more in detail too.

So in the end, it's good, it's a sign that R7 is able to write something completely different from what he usually does. And yet I still have the feeling of reading something unique, that I couldn't read anywhere else. No so much in terms of narration − it's rather conventional − but in terms of atmosphere and setting… hum, I don't really know how to say it. But the story definitely has a peculiar flavor. Maybe because of the fact that after Caleb's defeat, there isn't really a Big Bad anymore.

Conclusion: hurry up, Witch Hunt, damnit!

edited 8th Sep '13 5:58:53 AM by Lyendith

Any wagers that S3 will go all "Puella awful twist, Mami style"? It'd be especially funny if it hits the fan in S3 as it would be a dark coincidence with Puella.

Am I going to have another "prophetic joke" moment with this? Basically, things I say as a joke have an odd way of coming true, such as a joke in the mid 90s' about a sandwich with meat as buns ending up with the Double down 12-14 years later, or WRRRYYYY jokes snarking at the Brood Lord's model pose ending up with Deep Striking Land Raiders in the Blood Angels codex 3 years later, or a sarcastic comment about mascots using guns. Guess what game got announced a year after I made that joke?

edited 9th Sep '13 9:22:45 PM by magnum12

And what would that "Puella twist" be? ò.Ô (sorry, I don't know anything about PMMM)

I just hope your prophetic power wore down along the way. >.<

PS: do you guys think Rose should be considered an Expy of Sakura? Between the rose hair, green eyes, white and red clothing and the flower-themed name, I can't help but make a connection, but I'm not sure that's enough to classify her as one… people seem to classify as an expy every character that looks vaguely similar to another, so I'm hesitant at referencing this trope lately…

edited 11th Sep '13 2:29:38 PM by Lyendith

The "Puella Twist" is a reference to a certain infamous Wham Moment involving Mami Tomoe in episode 3 in which the series brings out its talons and exposes its true colors as a grimdark Deconstruction of the Magical Girl genre. I can't say in any more than that as basically ANYTHING from episode 3 onwards is considered a spoiler due to the extensive amounts of awful truths, Wham Moment, and Wham Line in each episode starting with episode 3.

As a comparison, The Reveal I'm talking about is about as dramatic and shocking as The Reveal of "Trollkastel's" true colors.

Seriously, go check out PMMM. This 12 episode anime is divided into 3 general arcs; the Mami arc (episodes 1-3), the Sayaka/Kyoko arc (episodes 4-9), and the Homura arc (episodes 10-12). Its an emotionally powerful rollercoaster ride, so don't be ashamed if your eyes start leaking at any point. I was shedding some Manly Tears during the Homura arc.

edited 11th Sep '13 3:09:29 PM by magnum12

Oh, this? Well, Season 3 will most certainly be darker than S1 and S2, and we might expect some unpleasant reveal about Rapunzel. Though I don't know to what extent.

I'm a bit affraid to watch PMMM because of the Hype Backlash effect… but I guess I'll try it some day.

If you liked Higurashi, you'll almost certainly like Madoka. Hits a lot of the same notes.

Which brings me to a similar question... I loved Higurashi and Umineko, but what I've read about Rose Guns Days leaves me feeling kinda meh. How good is it, do you guys think? Especially from the perspective of someone who liked Higurashi, Umineko, Madoka, and similar but with relatively little taste for wackiness?

edited 14th Sep '13 5:27:51 PM by Exetera

Madoka is like Higurashi? Not an idea that would have occurred to me.

Ah, but it is. Watching When They Cry first improves one's enjoyment of PMMM. The connection can be summarized in one word, which is a MASSIVE spoiler which is indirect spoilers for Higurashi and to a lesser extent Umineko by proxy: "Homurika". As another correlation with Higurashi, much like how Tsumihoroboshi-hen retroactively makes Onikakushi-hen much more tragic, the "Homura Arc" retroactively makes most scenes involving her retroactively more tragic and heartbreaking.

In all seriousness, watch it. YT currently has the sub up as of this date. I can say with certainty that from my experiences it is everybit worth the hype it gets, though the point where it starts Growing the Beard is around episode 3. Is widely considered to be practically a no brainer for "Amongst the best anime of 2011" and one of the best of all time. If I must rate the cast based on my opinions, I'd rate it as Homura>Mami>Sayaka>Kyoko>Madoka (don't dislike her but I found her to be the weak link).

Back on topic, I'm mainly waiting for this to get done so we can get the next When They Cry. I'd wager summer 2014. MY inner snarker would like to make a wise crack about it somehow involving abused children and lunatics mucking about and killing people, with Insane Troll Logic being the rule of the day, and no stupid solutions like "Over 9000 people being the same person."

edited 14th Sep '13 9:38:37 PM by magnum12