Is this an example?

Is the double-decker couch in The LEGO Movie an example of Aluminum Christmas Trees? I think the intention was for it to sound like a new invention Emmet made up ("so everyone can watch TV together and be buddies!"), but there are actual double-decker couches in real life.

It sounds like it could be an example, unless the intent is to make a joke about Emmett inventing something that already exists.

edited 9th Sep '15 11:13:15 AM by Fighteer

The joke is pretty decisively about how ridiculous Emmett's idea is. He's outright told it's the stupidest thing anyone's ever come up with and that nobody would ever want that. Multiple characters throughout the film complain about the idea. The villain interrupts a monologue to rant about how inane the concept is.

With that in mind, I would say yes, it's an example.

edited 9th Sep '15 11:24:02 AM by TobiasDrake

I was under the impression that it wasn't a commercial product, just custom-made stuff made after the fact.

I'm not sure that's what Aluminum Christmas Trees is, actually. I thought it was about the audience assuming something was too ludicrous to have been real, not the creators.

@Karxrida I think that's more Defictionalization?

(Professor Layton example) Nice Guy: Hershel is always calm and polite with everyone he meets. (Dragon Ball z: Abridged example) Pet the Dog: When handed new armor by Bulma, Vegeta calls it the best thing she ever produced. (Example for The Scorpion King) Large Ham: Cause it's Dwayne Johnson, of course. (Horrid Henry example) Names to Run Away from Really Fast: Would you want a teacher named Miss Battle Axe?

That adds a touch of subjectivity, but ACT is not a YMMV trope (yet). Since even the idea is brought up as ludicrous even in-universe, I assumed it was an example. The Laconic description for ACT is just "it sounds fictional", the Square Peg Round Trope page says that it must clearly sound fake (which on its own has some subjectivity).

^^ Don't think the DBZA example really counts, considering that Trunks (Vegeta and Bulma's kid) was right there when he said that. It's more of a backhanded insult to him than a compliment to Bulma.

Trunks was there twice over, in fact. Baby Trunks gripes in baby talk about the comment, prompting Vegeta to clarify, "Yes, even you." It's pretty clearly a backhanded dig at Trunks.

edited 9th Sep '15 2:00:31 PM by TobiasDrake

Hey folks. I was told by the mod/s from the "Edit banned/suspended" forum board that I need to go here... Well, short story is because of ZCE inconsistency and I need help to double check if they're okay or I missed a spot somewhere.

PS - I did have Visual Novel posted as a trope, but I was advised to remove it since it's not correct. I did so and these are the remaining stuff that I was told to look over.

The following in brackets were the justification that I wrote them as ZCE, some of them having wrong spelling. That part is my fault. Just need someone's opinion on these.

PPS - The Hayarigami games are made by NIS Japan and are not exported out of Japan, so most people would not have known about this. I'll be happy to clear some things up regardings tropes posted here related to the VN series. I also want to add that for the Hayarigami 2 tropes, the explanation in the brackets were done 'cause it's be too problematic to explain everything all over again as a sequel game to the first Hayarigami game. Pointers are appreciated to avoid this problem in the near future.

PPPPS - The Dragon trope for Delavane is removed since further episodes don't show him acting the role and instead, defects again back to help the task force. Is it okay to ask someone to have it deleted?

• Visual Novel.Shin Hayarigami:
  • Bloody Horror: [You will see lots of this, partially becaues Anyone Can Die.] Unlike the three Hayarigami games, Shin shows a lot of blood to put the scare factor in, such as the Blind Man's victims bleeding to death with their eyes and tongue removed after being attacked.
• Visual Novel.Hayarigami 2
  • Urban Legends: [The game's theme and focus, again.] Like the first Hayarigami game, it focuses on urban legends and their links to crime.
  • Who You Gonna Call?: [The MPD HAS, once again.] The MPD HAS is sent to investigate cases with links to the paranormal due to its "ambiguous" status in the force.
• Characters.The Brink Prime Minister Umair Zaman:
  • Big Bad: [Of the first season.] He's responsible for the events of the first season, taking control of Pakistan via military coup.

edited 10th Sep '15 8:02:01 AM by Ominae

Just because it's a sequel doesn't mean context shouldn't be added there as well. The only exception is if it's an entry on a trope page written as a franchise/series entry, since then it directly applies to the whole (or the reverse: an entry of the trope on a franchise/series work page). Basically, either you write the entire context for both games in the series, or you write one entry that explicitly includes both.

Would be nice to give at least one or two examples of Urban Legends that appear and how they're used, preferably in a way that's not very spoilery.

The entry for The Dragon doesn't look like an example as it's written, since it seems to contradict what it claims itself.

edited 9th Sep '15 10:22:48 PM by AnotherDuck

Also the Dragon needs more context than just who the charcter is tied to.

For the Hayarigami 2 Urban Legend trope, one of the cases the TMPD investigate is the rumor that some high school students were kidnapped by demons and noted to be "spirited away".

I probably need to add more emphasis on the urban legend trope for the first Hayarigami game that the chain mail urban trope is a specific example the TMPD investigate with links to a serial killer. But I think I need to emphasis that the trilogy involves investigating urban myths and you determine via VN-style gameplay if a case is a "Scooby-Doo" Hoax or if its Real After All.^note I have not written the page for the third game yet.

I'm not sure on how to write up the Dragon trope for Delavane. It's not revealed that he worked behind the back of Interpol until a few episodes later in the season as a Wham Episode. The problem I see with it is that sure, he's the dragon for Reiden Global. But only Clayton Burke is doing Big Bad things on behalf of the company to cover up their crimes. He was only there to take orders from him and take out the Interpol-backed task force. I don't see how it can work to not make it ZCE.

It's going to be late, so another rewrite will have to wait until morning with the two mentioned. Maybe the others too.

edited 10th Sep '15 7:50:25 AM by Ominae

The Dragon is not just "second in command to the Big Bad". The Dragon is a very specific trope about a character who acts as the penultimate threat. They must be challenged and defeated in order to confront the Big Bad. Usually they represent a different kind of challenge than the main villain — if the villain presents a mental or moral challenge, The Dragon will be a physical threat. That is, in fact, the archetype as it was originally conceived and why we give it that name.

If the Big Bad is a physical threat, then The Dragon will be their gatekeeper — the final test of the hero's worthiness to fight him. If they can't beat The Dragon, they have no chance to defeat the Big Bad. Often, the Dragon will be fought multiple times, rebuffing the heroes until they have achieved the necessary level of power or skill.

The trope example must include this information — describe the type of threat The Dragon poses and, spoilers aside, how the heroes ultimately confront them on their path to beat the Big Bad. In some cases, the trope gets subverted, such as by having them not show up to fight the heroes, be after entirely different goals, or take over after their boss is defeated.

If the Big Bad has a team of powerful subordinates without a clear leader, they are either Co-Dragons or a Quirky Miniboss Squad — list them under the most specific trope instead.

edited 10th Sep '15 11:06:41 AM by Fighteer

Crap. Went to further dig up things under Zoo and it's really confusing on who's the dragon for Reiden Global. Gaspard is also revealed to be a bad guy, but he's killed in one episode.

I removed the dragon trope for Delavane and concentrate on the others instead by tomorrow morning and get more feedback. Instead, the character page for Zoo needs to emphasis on Delavane's dirty cop role and his defecting from Interpol to RG and back again since he only exhibited that trope or two.

Thanks for the help, Fighteer.

edited 10th Sep '15 8:02:37 AM by Ominae

You're welcome. Bear in mind that it is not necessary to have an example of The Dragon in every work. If it is not present, it is not present. There is no need to torture the trope in order to fit someone in.

edited 10th Sep '15 8:03:01 AM by Fighteer

I'll concentrate on the other stuff shima laid out for me tomorrow.

Hopefully, I can settle all of my recent ZCE stuff and put it behind me.

Decided to invest in rewriting it again until I can get it right. Let me know how I did here. Honestly.

I probably won't change one or two since they look fine.

PS - The HAS stands for the Historical Archives Section, which is the section "investigating" occult crimes in the Hayarigami game trilogy.

• Shin Hayarigami
  • Bloody Horror: [You will see lots of this, partially becaues Anyone Can Die.] Unlike the three Hayarigami games, Shin shows a lot of blood to put the scare factor in, such as the Blind Man's victims bleeding to death with their eyes and tongue removed after being attacked. This is the reason why CERO gave the game a Z rating.

• Hayarigami 2
  • Urban Legends: [The game's theme and focus, again.] Like the first Hayarigami game, it focuses on urban legends and their links to crime. One prominent example is a case of "Spirit Away" where the detectives investigate the kidnapping of high school students and rumors that demons were responsible.
  • Who You Gonna Call?: [The MPD HAS, once again.] The MPD HAS is sent to investigate cases with links to the paranormal due to its "ambiguous" status in the force.

• The Brink
• Prime Minister Umair Zaman:
  • Big Bad: [Of the first season.] He's responsible for the events of the first season, taking control of Pakistan via military coup and heightening tensions in South Asia.

edited 11th Sep '15 5:44:21 PM by Ominae

Looks better. "MPD HAS" looks abstruse to someone who doesn't know what the letters mean, in particular in an example of Who You Gonna Call?, where the agency is the subject of the trope, and where explaining what they are and what they do is more important. On a trope page it's necessary to explain what they mean, since that's the only time you encounter them. On a work page, if they're explicitly explained in the description, it might be okay to use them. This is also assuming it's what's actually used in canon material, since fan-made initialisms shouldn't be used.

The initial were in the first Hayarigami game. Never mind, I didn't put it there so I assume peeps know. I fail, but I can't do it. Probably need assistance there.

I need someone to check on the others too since I'm heading out.

edited 11th Sep '15 7:57:50 AM by Ominae

Never assume people are familiar with the work.

Right. I'll need to have that one fixed as well. Thanks.

I'll have to ask someone else to do it.

The following example in Protagonist-Centered Morality:

Subverted in Sailor Moon S. Usagi is the protagonist and she is against killing Hotaru in spite of how she could potentially cause a lot of destruction. But Usagi admits that it's because she can't bring herself to kill an innocent girl. The narrative doesn't take either side on the matter.

Is this an actual example, subverted or otherwise? After all, prior to the apparition of Hotaru, the series never portrayed kill innocent people transformed in monsters as okay, including if the character was nameless(as the priest of the Seven Great Youma fought in a cemetery.) or if the protagonist approved this. (As the friend of Minako that dated her crush.)

It's a non-example. The story doesn't play it up as if Usagi's going to be right because she's the protagonist just to have her be wrong (so it's not a subversion), and the Moral Dilemma itself is one that's frequently used in fiction, with both sides being represented as the good choice, this also not having a clear right choice (so it's not a straight example either).