Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

Random question.

In this tv series, not the book, could Jaime have beaten the Mountain in a swordfight if he still had his both hands?

He could the same way Oberyn could

No guarantees. Ever. Remarkably similar to real life

Prime!Jaime with both hands would have beaten Gregor Clegane.

I think the badass ladder is established pretty clearly in the series, and Gregor is nowhere not at the top.

I think the top tier (dead characters included) is made of Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, that Rhaegar Targaryen and Robert are close to them, and 2H!Jaime is just below. Gregor is more along the likes of Loras Tyrell: excellent but not legendary.

Unskilled, but Strong; you don't count a fucking grizzly bear among the best judo fighters, despite being able of pulling similar stuff to them, despite the lack of finesse.

Seriously, the guy is huge and can use game breaking equipment due to that; all the skill in the world won't do much against thick enough armor. Oberyn did pull a Batman there.

That's pretty much my thought too. I think Gregor is functionally unbeatable given that he's heavily armored and super strong. Gregor really only needs to get in one good hit to win.

I think a great swordsman like Jaime or Barristan could probably parry every sword thrust, but Gregor hits hard and they'd be SOL if Gregor landed a successful punch.

I'm reminded of this character Bremer der Gorst in The First Law and his success in (nonfatal) duels. Gorst is a huge, very strong guy and his fencing weapons are abnormally large and heavy (just like how Gregor wields a greatsword with one hand) In one scene, you see him hit an opponent and the guy flies several feet in the opposite direction.

Unlike Gregor, Gorst actually is pretty fast and he actually is technically skilled- although conversely, Gregor is much larger and stronger. In both cases though, you basically have someone who is "the best" because they are ridiculously physically strong, such that it's not a fair contest against them. Gorst only loses the Contest because one of his opponents is magically given heightened strength and speed, just like Gregor only lost his duel with Oberyn because his opponent poisoned his weapons.

edited 3rd Aug '15 11:37:51 AM by Hodor2

I'm looking forward to seeing Arthur Dayne if they do indeed flash back to the Place of Happy Funtimes this upcoming season.

Actually Gregor was pretty clearly beaten by Oberyn in their fight. He only died due poison, yes, but he was quite clearly outmatched, his brute strength didn't serve him jack squad in that fight. The fight as of itself pretty much ended when Oberyn impaled him. The only reason he "won" was Oberyn's monloguing.

I'd say Barristan could win The Mountain pretty handily. In his Last Stand Barristan moves faster than a lightning bolt and delivers killing blows even faster. It's unlikely the Mountain would be able to keep up with such speed and swordfighting skill, Barristan would probably be able to disarm him due his superior fencing.

Well Oberyn did get thrown around a couple times, and did have his weapon snapped.

I really enjoyed watching Barristan and Jorah kicking ass this season. If only they got to do it more.

Max von Sydow is set to replace Struan Rodger as the Three-Eyed Raven.

Wait, what? That's amazing.

I would generally prefer that there be no recastings for continuity's sake, but that's quite an upgrade! (No offense to the other guy, but he's someone I've never heard of)

I wonder if we are going to get authentic red-eye Bloodraven now?

Gregor Clegane is huge, strong and powerful and he uses that to his advantage. But a great knight and swordsman can out-think and out-fight such opponents with skill and verve. Its not like there's a great secret to beating him, Bronn himself mapped out the attack strategy and he's an upjumped sellsword. Barristan and Prime!Jaime would have taken him down.

It's weird that I mainly know that actor from the Rush Hour movies, but I know I like him.

He's appeared in a lot of other movies, like Minority Report, many Woody Allen movies, and Shutter Island. Of course I know his amazing film work with Ingmar Bergman in the 60s. He also played Jesus in The Greatest Story Ever Told. Indeed, you can say that he's probably the highest profile actor to yet appear in the series, before him it would be Jonathan Pryce and Sean Bean probably.

edited 3rd Aug '15 9:10:23 PM by JulianLapostat

But Clegane is also fast for a man of his size. Bronn was terrified of him. Even Oberyn struggled quite a bit, sliding poison into the Mountain's veins using Death of a Thousand Cuts using a Poisoned Weapon. I'm fairly certain that was what caused the mountain to become so lethargic towards the end of the fight. I'm not sure Jaime would be able to count on being able to properly defend against a man who can strike fast and hard.

The Mountain is a system.

It's unlikely the poison had anything to do with with the Mountain's reaction. Oberyn's poison is specifically noted for being a very slow-acting poison.

And to be honest, Oberyn is pretty in control for most of the fight. He blocks or dodges every single attack Gregor throws at him without even breaking a sweat and lands several blows on him in the very few first minutes of the fight.

The only time the Mountain gets a leg up on him is when he breaks his spear, but that's very brief and Oberyn just shakes it off. Other than that you can actually see Oberyn just fucking with him, like when Oberyn knocks out Gregor's helmet and slashes his calf.

Oberyn pretty soundly defeated the Mountain. His approach was very rope-a-dope (piss off the Mountain into attacking him in blind rage, dodge until he makes a mistake, cripple him when he does and then make a killing strike), but if he could do it, guys like Barristan or Jaime would be able to do the same.

Bronn is not terrified of him per se, he just thinks that it is ridiculous to fight him for someone else's life. I'm pretty sure that, had his own life been threatened, he would have taken Gregor on with much the same tactics Oberyn used - he did the same in the Eyrie. Of course, in the Eyrie errors were tolerated, here they would not be.

Jaime was supposed to be #2 in the realm at the beginning of the story, with only Barristan being more dangerous than him. He would have taken Gregor down.

The main thing with Gregor Clegane is not that he can't be beaten. He can, its just that unlike other fantasy stories he offers no margin for error. If you are going to kill him, you better not f—k around. The battle between Clegane and Oberyn is a parody of the great duel. GRRM mentioned the Princess Bride, but you can go back to mythology, Odysseus versus the Cyclops (a mental duel not a physical one, but similar in spirit) or Sigfried and the Dragon. In these flights the hero is so noble and driven that he lets his guard slip and then he suffers and loses by trickery or bad luck. Its a palliative cliche meant to hide the fact life and death struggle has any real dramatic purpose except brutal survival. When you are fighting someone to the death, stuff like revenge or broad ideals don't really matter, its two animals killing each other essentially.

Game of Thrones is about applying some real world take on that cliche that's all. Oberyn Martell had to be a good enough fighter to thoroughly outclass Clegane and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Someone like Barristan and Jaime won't be that noble. They'll fight to the death when it comes down to it and give no quarter at all.

The most I can see Barristan doing is, after slashing both of Gregors legs or something, asking if he has any last words before dealing the killing blow.

You'd have to get past that huge, heavy sword too. A second of bad luck would screw you up.

Gregor simply wasn't aggressive enough after breaking Oberyn's spear. If he had put more pressure on the guy after disarming him he probably wouldn't have been speared in the gut like that.

The disarm Gregor pulled didn't look like he was holding back because he had to it looked like he gave it one go but after failing to delver a finisher he pulled back and waited for Oberyn to replace his weapon. I would guess there is a formal set of dueling rules that states that if your opponents weapon breaks you have to let him replace it and Gregor was either allowed one chance to finish it or he was pushing the rules to their breaking point as it was.

Rewatching season 2, I can't help but thinking that Stannis should have just strangled Melisandre and got it over with.

HA! If only.