This is the sticky thread for questions related to the namespacing of works. As in, "which is the right namespace for this work?"
Ideally, questions already answered are covered on the Namespace Map. If you know a namespacing issue has already been resolved, but it is not yet documented on the Map, please update the Map.
If you want to suggest a new namespace, don't post here, but in Suggesting New Namespaces
instead.
For easier reference, I've numbered my questions:
- #1: Where do animated films go? They seem to be distributed rather inconsistenly over Film/ (Puss In Boots, Whats Opera Doc), WesternAnimation/ (Disneys Anne Frank, Snow White), Anime/ (Princess Mononoke) and Disney/ (Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs, Der Fuehrers Face).
- #2: There are a few songs which have their own pages ("Pirate Jenny"). Where do they go – to Music/ or to Literature/ ?
- #3: Where do composers go – to Music/ , or are they to be treated like other creators, which hitherto stay on Main/ ?
- #4: Where do Talk Shows, Game Shows and News Broadcasts go? I guess you could call these formats Live-Action TV but they're not really "TV series", as in Series/.
- #5: Am I right in assuming that Puppet Shows go to Series/ ?
- #6: What about “hybrid shows”, i.e. segment shows that incorporate both live action and animation? (e.g. Die Sendung Mit Der Maus)
- #7: Where to put picture books? I am thinking of books like Der Struwwelpeter and Max and Moritz — books that are really not complete without their illustrations. They are not (yet) ComicBook/s, but to sort them under Literature/ feels a little unsatisfactory too.
- #8: The rule is to put works into the namespace of their original medium. However, once in a while there is a work which is little known in its original medium, and almost exclusively known by its adaptation. I’m thinking of Das Boot, for example: there's a novel, but it is almost exclusively known by the Petersen movie.
- #9: Should One Book Authors who are invariably tied to a single work be treated as a creator or a work page rather?— Currently, we have Samuel Pepys and Herodotus, but shouldn't these pages be at Literature/The Diary of Samuel Pepys and Literature/The Histories rather?
- #10: There are cases where I’m unsure whether to use the English or the original title. Is there are hard rule that determines whether Der Ring Des Nibelungen goes to Theatre/Der Ring des Nibelungen or Theatre/The Ring of the Nibelung? Even Wikipedia uses the original title.
I'd be grateful for input.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Nov 9th 2023 at 8:15:08 PM
^ It's actually exactly like that.
Just imagine that Action Comics #1 was a comic issue, and Action Comics #2 was a prose story.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Please remind me....
- do we allow tropers to make pages for individual episodes?
- do we allow tropers to make pages for individual books in a series?
- do we allow tropers to make pages for short stories?
- do we allow tropers to make pages for individual comic books?
If all of those are true, then it would seem that we allow a trope page for any or even all of the works in Transformers: Classic. Which consists of toys, literature, and comic book issues. Three different mediums. The rule for the Franchise/ Name Space isn't "a franchise of works", but "three pages in three different mediums".
edited 28th May '14 1:17:23 PM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
@m8e - closer to The Killing Joke followed by "Liar!".
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Calendar enthusiast
I got a PM asking me, as a Transformers fan, to weigh in. So here's my €0.02.
Transformers continuity is confusing, and it's a bad idea to try to make any sense of it. That said...
Classics is not fanfic. The material is published in the official fan club magazine, but the stories and comics are still an official part of the Transformers metafranchise, and thus are canon (inasmuch as any aspect of Transformers can be called canon). In fact, Classics leads into Transformers Shattered Glass, which nobody seems to have a problem with.
So that leaves us with Franchise/, Comicbook/, and Literature/. Or does it?
One aspect of Transformers that people tend to overlook is that it isn't about books, or stories, or comics, or cartoons. It's about toys. All the fun fiction is just there to advertise a toyline, and Classics is a toyline. It's a line of mostly redecoes aimed at a relativelt small group of subscribers, granted, but then they're the only ones who'll be seeing the fiction.
If Transformers: Classics is placed in the Toys/ namespace, with the Comicbook/ and Literature/ versions as redirects, it can cover all the material without favouring any medium, while also avoiding the issues with Franchise/ that have already been outlined.
For this reason, I submit that Toys/ is the preferable namespace for Transformers: Classics.
I'd also like to answer crazysamaritan's rhetorical questions:
Yup. That's what the Recap/ namespace is for.
Yup. Last I checked, the individual books in Harry Potter, Discworld, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Dark Tower, and A Song of Ice and Fire each have their own pages.
Yup. They go in Literature/.
You mean like Batman?
I kid, I kid, I know what you're talking about. As well as actual comics, which may or may not be comic books, the Comicbook/ namespace is also used for individual storylines. If a significant storyline lasts just one issue, such as For the Man Who Has Everything or The Night Gwen Stacy Died, then that one issue will get a whole page to itself.
edited 28th May '14 1:56:45 PM by VampireBuddha
Ukrainian Red Cross
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
We actually have tropes about fan-stuff being official: Ascended Fanfic, Running the Asylum, Ascended Fanon, Official Fan-Submitted Content, and Approval of God are some examples.
The "issue" against the Franchise/ Name Space has been "this is not multiple work serials". But it has been said multiple times, in multiple ways, that Franchise/ (the namespace) means "a work that appears in multiple mediums". It is the Multimedia Franchise, not "McDonald's Franchise".
Yes, we do have a problem with Main.Transformers Shattered Glass, because works do not belong in the Main/ Namespace. If you think any of the Transformers that are in Main/ or nonstandard namespaces should be moved to Toys/, then I am good with that. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Also, glad to see someone with a bit of humour in this thread. 
edited 28th May '14 3:39:16 PM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Not that the initiator of the problem has earned a suspension and is awaiting judgement in the "Edit banned/Suspended" thread.
Meanwhile, I've moved the whole thing back to Franchise/ since it had Fighteer's approval. I agree with the points mentioned above, but it was probably the best compromise.
▲
I got a PM as well, but it looks like the matter has been settled. For the record, Franchise/ seems logical to me, but if we absolutely had to avoid it then I concur that Toy/ would be the most reasonable place to put it.
The only thing that confuses me here is that apparently Fan Fic/ was under consideration for... some reason. Running the Asylum does not magically unofficialize a work, last time I checked?
The same guy as all those other Andrusis. Except that one.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Right. The work is an official fan club publication. Fan Fiction is a form of Alternate or Expanded Universe created by the fans of a work, rather than the work's original creator. It doesn't mean "non-canon work". That's why my opinion is that it belongs in FanFic/, but I've been ready to accept Toy/, Comic Book/, Franchise/, or Literature/ instead.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Calendar enthusiast
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
No, fanfic does mean it's not canon, at least not initially. Classics was always canon, therefore it's not fanfic.
Doesn't Franchise pages require that two(or was it three?) works of different media has pages?
Does Transformer classics have that?
edited 28th May '14 11:46:29 PM by m8e
Yes, three.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I'm with Vampire Buddha on this. The best fit for it would be either Comic Book/ or Literature/. It's officially supported by Hasbro so it doesn't belong in Fan Fic/.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
While a Fan Fiction generally does not get support by the original creator(s), I've already linked some tropes where creators support fan works. Which I conclude that "creator support/acknowledgment" is not the defining trait to the term "Fan Fic". We have a page defining it. Enjoy the read.
I'm getting really surprised that the definition used by several of you seem to ignore the "fan" part of the definition, and focus on "blessing by the original creator". Is it that you assume fanfics must violate copyright law?
Note: we are getting somewhat off thread topic with this conversation, so I'm happy to continue in a dedicated thread or via PM instead.
edited 29th May '14 5:16:18 AM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Lost in Space
Licensed material for a work is generally covered under Expanded Universe. Unlicensed material is Fan Fic; legality has nothing to do with it. For the record, I strongly take exception to the idea that non-licensed fan works are to be treated equally with official material.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
First off, it's odd that Classics gets its own page, honestly. It's not really a cohesive work so much as a continuity. It's like there being a separate work page for the rebooted Star Trek universe, in addition to pages on the works within it. Transformers Timelines is where pretty much all of the works.
In other words, Transformers Classics isn't a work at all. I don't get why tropes aren't just going to the Franchise.Transformers Timelines page.
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▲
I'd say it's the other way around, actually. Classics is a storyline akin to the ones mentioned earlier. Timelines is a big umbrella covering lots of completely unrelated works.
crazysamaritan, after seeing you elaborate a bit, I think I understand where the confusion is. You seem to have gotten hung up on the phrase "fan club" and think we're talking about fan-submitted content that Fun Publications picked out and published with the Official Hasbro Seal Of Sure Why Not, which is a reasonable assumption but it's wrong. Fun Pub is a Hasbro licensee that hires people to create content which they then publish, the same as IDW or Paramount or Cartoon Network Studios or Mainframe or Marvel or whatever godforsaken company was responsible for the Unicron Trilogy.
The same guy as all those other Andrusis. Except that one.
Could you name any stories released as Transformers Classics? Because I really can't think of any.
Even the ones that directly tie into the Classics toys and had figures in those bodies were Timelines, like Games Of Deception.
edited 30th May '14 6:01:33 AM by Larkmarn
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NaNo 4328 / 50,000
There was a link back on page 36: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_Classics#Fiction
Actually, my impression is a mix between the two alternatives you presented. I agree that Fun Pub has a role similar to IDW, Image Comics, or Universal Studios. But Fun Pub has the creative control over their publications. They do have Hasbro's "Official Hasbro Seal Of Sure Why Not", although they may have rules about the content (no mutilated babies and obvious stuff like that).
But that means the professional fan club (I assume they run more than just Transformers fanzines) has ultimate creative control. As a comparison, Joss Whedon can be assumed to be a Marvel fan, yes? But Marvel Studios had ultimate creative control over the Avengers film that he created.
Both Fun Pub and IDW are allowed to write the stories they want to, hiring professional authors of their choice, not Hasbro's (Both are assumed to have the seal). IDW comics are not fan-creations because they do not identify themselves as fan publications. Fun Pub comics and prose are fan-creations because they identify themselves as fan publications.
This is my opinion: works by people who identify themselves as fans (conventions, fanzines, movies, music videos) are considered Fan Works unless the original Creator (legal rep, estate, etc) has creative control over the content. The opposing opinion seems to be "it is only Fan Work if they can be prosecuted for violating copyright.".
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Every one of those are Timelines fiction... again, Classics isn't a franchise, it's a continuity. Mind you, we've got precedent for having a Franchise/Continuity with Franchise.Transformers Aligned Universe but I don't really see the point since it can all go on Timelines anyway.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Again, "Franchise/" does not mean "McDonald's Franchise", it means a work that has multiple medium sub-works.
Arguing if continuity counts as The 'Verse and makes a work distinct from similar works is not an argument I'm willing to engage in today. Especially not for a franchise I only share peripheral appreciation for.
edited 30th May '14 9:07:07 AM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Yes, I'm well aware of what Franchise/ means on this site. My point is that there are no Classics works. There are Timelines works set in the Classics-verse.
edited 30th May '14 10:13:46 AM by Larkmarn
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NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I'm sorry for misunderstanding. The way you wrote the post, I felt could have meant either argument applied (or both), and after the (rather long) discussion, I was less favourably inclined to interpreting intent.
Again, my apologies.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'm staying out of that argument :) You guys can resolve it to your satisfaction without my opinion.
edited 30th May '14 5:55:06 PM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Ah, no worries. Now that you do understand my point, does my argument make sense though?
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But there is a difference between that and for example Action Comics #1 and Action Comics #2.
It's not that clear cut.
edited 28th May '14 1:05:47 PM by m8e