God Tropes: Q&A

Exactly What It Says on the Tin: Ask questions about any of the God Tropes, and see if the Troper Hive Mind can enlighten you with its collective wisdom and experience.

First batch from me. Please note that questions in sub-entries should be treated as more or less separate questions with their own answers, unless answering the main question does automatically answer the sub-question(s) too.

1. God:
   1. What are the qualifications necessary to be this trope?
      1. Are Abrahamic (if not specifically Judeo-Christian) themes mandatory, or can the trope apply to any singular Supreme Being?
      2. Can the trope apply to cases of "dualistic monotheism"? for example, a religion has a God of Good that is the sole object of worship, a God of Evil that opposes said God of Good and His followers and seeks their downfall, and no other deity whatsoever; would said God of Good count as being an example of the God trope?
      3. On a tangential trope, would the same answer(s) apply for the Satan trope in analogous scenarios? As in, can it apply to any Ultimate Personification of Evil-type figure, a God of Evil that is the sworn Arch-Enemy of that is good in the universe, or other such characters?
   2. Can the trope apply when the deity in question is either a Top God or a God of Gods?
   3. Does the trope mandate that the deity's portfolio encompass all "concepts" and "god jobs" in equal measure, or can they be more attuned to particular concepts over others?

2. God Is Dead, God Is Good, God Is Evil, God Is Flawed: Do they only apply to God type deities, or can they apply to Physical Gods and the like as well?
   1. Tangentially related: Does Satan Is Good only apply to an Abrahamic-themed Devil figure (whether or not he really is the Abrahamic Satan)?

3. God Job: The description implies that the character has to start as a mortal to qualify. Is that right, or can apply to cases where the job-holders in question were "born" (or created) as deities in the first place? (e.g. Uranus being succeeded by Kronus - who himself is succeeded by Zeus - as both Top God and sky deity.)

4. Can a God of Good be also a case of Good Is Not Nice and/or Good Is Not Soft?

5. Does Pieces of God extend to such cases where a god splits part of themselves into "pieces", rather than all of it?

6. Physical God: The Fisher King and God Job potholes in the "title" (bolded out for clarity) of the following passage from the "typical powers and trait" list do not seem right to me; their definitions do not fit well with the context of the passage in question. Can I have a second opinion on this issue?

7. Why does Physical God's article treat Powers That Be as being on a higher level in the heirarchy of Cosmic Entities, when Powers That Be neither have a particular power level requirement nor are they restricted to actual gods or even to "merely" superpowerful beings?

EDIT: Added a few questions, and made a few tweaks to the last question.

edited 7th Feb '12 2:23:39 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Bump.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Most of your questions can be answered with Tropes Are Flexible.

1. I don't see a reason that God has to be Abrahamic religions only. They don't have a monopoly on monotheism. I'm pretty sure to fit the God trope, the deity in question does have to be part of a monotheistic religion, not just the head honcho. Ahura Mazda is God, Zeus isn't. God is usually associated more with "good" things than "bad" things, including things like light and fire that don't have any moral value, so a little imbalance in the portfolio is fine. Note that I am in no way a theologian or a maker of new tropes.

6. You've got a point about the potholes you mention. If it matters to you, I don't see why you couldn't remove them. If you want to keep the number of wicks up, you could reference Fisher King and God Job elsewhere in the description. Not being the person who wrote about Powers That Be in that article, I'm not going to speculate about what they were thinking.

edited 6th Feb '12 4:56:16 PM by rikalous

Regarding 2 — I think it only applies to a singular "main" God, because "one of many gods is Dead/Good/Evil/Flawed" just doesn't have the same impact.

2.1 — I at least saw Satan Is Good applied to Shinki from Touhou, who is quite far from traditional Satan depiction.

Your feedback is very appreciated.

What about a God of Gods-type Top God - that is, one who is "as far beyond the other gods as they are beyond mortals"? As an example, Eru Illuvatar of The Silmarillion and The Lord Of The Rings is both a God of Gods (with the Ainur being the "lesser gods" in question), and is described as being either more or less the Abrahamic God or a thinly-veiled Captain Ersatz-type Crystal Dragon Jesus.

Come to think of it, even Top God's example lists the Abrahamic God as a God of Gods example, in so far as that apparently was what He was considered to be in early Judeo-Christian thought.

I see. I suppose a minimum requirement in the case of the existence of multiple gods is that the god is either the Top God, or is the only/main one for a particular race (and thus the trope only applies from their perspective).

---

New question:

1. Are God and Physical God mutually exclusive of each other?

edited 7th Feb '12 2:48:27 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Eru really isn't a God of Gods. The Valar are described by Tolkien as being analogous to angels, and they reject worship by men as gods. Tolkien's universe is strictly monotheistic.

As for your original question, I really think it comes down to the individual trope description. Some of the tropes were written to describe deities in general. Others seem to me like they were defined to specifically reflect certain ways that people portray the Judeo-Christian God.

edited 11th Feb '12 6:36:39 AM by Catbert

In-universe? Maybe not, though you would have to note that practically none of Middle-earth's peoples are known to invoke Eru's name in any form of worship or other religious(-like) rite; it's the Valar that recieve this treatment. Also, the Valar overall do still count as Physical Gods by the trope definition, their description puts them as "occupy(ing) a role somewhere between archangels and polytheistic gods", and a God of Gods-type Top God is defined as being beyond the setting's resident Physical Gods as they are beyond mortal beings.

EDIT: For the record, the Valar are the higher, Physical God-like class of the Ainur that Eru Illuvatar created,; the lesser Ainur are known as Maiar, who are more comparable to "angelic spirits".

The latter case I've noticed to often contradict actual usage of the trope(s) in question, which extends them to encompass deities of polytheistic pantheons (real-life mythological or completely fictional), frequently in the trope article's example list.

edited 11th Feb '12 7:07:40 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Yes. In the very earliest versions, the Valar were reffered to as gods, but Tolkien made a concious choice to drop that term, and to say that those men that do call them gods are doing so out of ignorance rather than because they are gods. Instead he picked a name that translates out to Powers.

The Ainur are never worshiped, except for the evil ones that go out and seek worship. I would say that the invocation of the names of the Valar, like when you see Frodo calling out the name of Elbereth, is closer to to what you see in certain varieties of Christianity where you have intercession of and veneration of saints and angels.

edited 11th Feb '12 7:44:28 AM by Catbert

Our Gods Are Greater has a problem. Under the Anthropomorphism section, we have an entry reading "Physical God:", then nothing. Looking at the article history, an editor by the handle of Trope Eater added it to the article in April 2013. I've already messaged an inquiry about this to the editor in question, but seeing that his last edit to the wiki and last post in the forums both date back to December 2013, I wouldn't hold my breath on him responding.

Thus I'd like the Troper Hive Mind's feedback on this issue. I'm suspecting that Trope Eater may have meant to pothole it in the "More than human" category. What do you think?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.