I think the sandbox version is good.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
Hammer of the Pervs
I like it. I'm going to go through the examples and make sure they're all gratuitous use of automatic weapons. Like, not just proper use of machine guns on the battlefield, like in Saving Private Ryan or any other realistic war movie.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
The sandbox is nice and clear. I like it much more.
It was either a penguin or a panda, but the choice is far less black and white than you would think!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This trope is not just for "gratuitous" usages.
It's perfectly possible to get More Dakka with any realistic automatic weapon as long as it's going full-auto instead of just bust fire.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickWhat
did you say? (Sorry, had to. 
)
Anyway, a machinegun most likely is an example. An assault rifle on the battlefield, on the other hand, is an example only if they're shooting more than short bursts, which is how you usually use one. Shooting anything more will make it too hard to aim to be practical. That's aside from the fact that most shots fired on a battlefield will miss and aren't really meant to hit in the first place*. Anything that isn't stationary (like a machinegun) isn't likely to carry enough ammo to have enuff dakka anyway.
edited 2nd Feb '12 12:15:42 PM by Feather7603
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
I am now a shiny stone~
You kidding? Nothing carries quite enough ammo to have anything near enuff dakka. Dakka is the ideal of massed rapid full-auto firepower that orks strive for.
The three finest things in life are to splat your enemies, drive them from their turf, and hear their lamentations as their rank falls!
Hammer of the Pervs
If it isn't just for gratuitous automatic use, and if what Shima said is true, then how is it still a trope? "Using automatic weapons" is just reality. Especially when it's used properly, like realistic long bursts of machine gun fire. You can see that in Blackhawk Down as well as the aforementioned Saving Private Ryan.
@Feather, assault rifles are primarily used only in semiautomatic mode, at least in well-trained national armies. Burst or automatic fire is for last resort volume of fire or the movies. Machine gun fire can be used to suppress and just put over a suspected or known enemy position to put their heads down, but every other round fired should and usually is aimed at something.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
It's a subtrope of Spam Attack. It just happens to be the most common subtrope of Spam Attack. Being common doesn't make it less of a trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Hammer of the Pervs
That doesn't really answer my question. What is it about use of automatic fire in fiction that makes it a trope? I would say the gratuitous or unrealistic use. How else can we define it as a trope and not just a fictional representation of realistic combat tactics?
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Cure Candy
Which is Spray And Pray though that is a already different trope (with a really bad main name.)
Hammer of the Pervs
Spray And Pray is a bad alt-title for A-Team Firing, which is a great title and isn't what I'm talking about. A-Team Firing is when the characters use More Dakka in a very impressive-looking display of firepower, but nobody gets hit or killed. Not relevant to the discussion.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Jupiterian Local
Hammer of the Pervs
I'm asking why it is a trope. I already gave you a reason why I don't think it is. You're just saying "why not," when I already answered that.
Beam Spam and Macross Missile Massacre are things that don't really happen in real life. Apaches can do the MMM, more or less, but they almost never do. They have pods of 76mm rockets so they can shoot them repeatedly, not so they can fire them all at once. If they do fire them all at once in a fictional setting, then it's definitely a Macross Missile Massacre, and again it's not realistic. Same thing with More Dakka. German soldiers defending Omaha Beach and using proper trigger discipline and keeping up a sustained rate of fire with MG42s is just real life. Dolph Lundgren as The Punisher in the 1989 film firing a few thousand rounds from an M60 without reloading the belt that never moves, that's not realistic and therefore it's definitely More Dakka.
edited 2nd Feb '12 2:39:52 PM by Martello
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
A trope is not just something that doesn't happen in Real Life.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick@Ace of Scarabs: Yes, I know it's not enuff dakka anyway (never enuff). The point was that if you do fire full-auto, you're going to run out of bullets in seconds.
@Martello: I meant that most bullets fired are for suppressing fire first, hitting targets second. Also that I don't know if it's true or not, but it's what I heard.
Spray And Pray is really a common expression for using More Dakka. The difference is basically just the aim of it: You're either spraying lots of bullets with the hope that just one (or a few) of them hits, while More Dakka is more about using more because it'e either effective or cool.
Personally I think Spray And Pray would do better to redirect to More Dakka, as the expression accurately covers a part of the trope. A-Team Firing is more about not hitting at all than spraying lots of bullets, from the way I understand it.
They're all similar tropes.
I don't think just using a 8-shot burst with a machinegun qualifies as More Dakka. Using a 8-shot burst with a mini-nuke launcher, on the other hand... Though on the other hand, if you're using said 8-shot burst on a normal person standing still (or lying down) right in front of you, it might still count.
edited 2nd Feb '12 4:38:45 PM by Feather7603
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
Hammer of the Pervs
@Shima, I get that, but I'm just trying to figure out what makes it a trope when it's just an accurate representation of real-life tactics.
@Feather, I knew what you meant, I was just clearing it up for you. Yes, suppression is not intended to hit anyone — if it does it's just gravy — but like I said any other bullets thrown should and usually are a target. A great example of the 8-round burst thing you're talking about happens in Rambo, the most recent one. He jumps on the fifty-cal in the jeep and uses an 8-10 round burst to splatter the driver. Completely unnecessary, completely More Dakka. And that's even something I could definitely see happening in real life, but it's still More Dakka. What I'm trying to say is that I just don't see judicious application of automatic fire as More Dakka. Unless it's from a gatling gun, because that's always more dakka no matter whether it's needed or not. Puff the Magic Dragon or a Huey with Miniguns on the doors in Vietnam movies, Neo shooting Agents, and of course Blain or T-1000 shooting those bad boys from the hip.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.In fiction, if you have an automatic weapon, you will use it to spray bullets all over the place because in fiction, that's what automatic weapons are for. You never see people firing assault rifles or machine guns in three-shot bursts because in fiction, that's not how you use them. If you did that, people would look at you funny and ask why you aren't just using a shotgun.
edited 2nd Feb '12 7:38:35 PM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Jupiterian Local
I see the Awesomeness.
At its core, reality in some cases becomes the notable part since somethings are just imbedded in viewer consciousness. It's the reason some shows using Silent Space is notable compared to Space Is Noisy. By removing what amounts to The Coconut Effect, it jars with expectations of the genre.
Fight smart, not fair.
Hammer of the Pervs
Okay, so either I'm missing the point of what this trope is, or everyone else is missing the point I'm trying to make.
Watch this scene from Saving Private Ryan starting at about 8:49. Notice excellent trigger discipline with short, aimed bursts. Then watch this scene from the 1989 The Punisher film from 2:18. Notice zero trigger discipline, spraying bullets like a hose at a cyclic rate of fire.
How are those two both the same trope?
edited 3rd Feb '12 7:13:12 AM by Martello
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Jupiterian Local
Oh! I see what you're saying now.
No, those two things aren't the same trope. More Dakka isn't just "using automatic weapons". It's "maximizing rate of fire and everything else be damned". If they're aiming carefully and firing in short bursts, that's not More Dakka, at least as I understand it. So the Punisher example would be More Dakka, but the Saving Private Ryan one wouldn't be.
edited 3rd Feb '12 7:43:52 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Yeah, short aimed bursts is not this trope. That's not a Spam Attack. It just doesn't need full auto. I've seen works do it with just enough people with pistols.
You just need a large volume of bullets being spammed out at an enemy. They can be amazingly accurate (Shoot 'Em Up has a couple of examples of this notably the stairwell scene) but they aren't controlled bursts. They're spewed out everywhere.
edited 3rd Feb '12 9:07:03 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Hammer of the Pervs
Glad those videos made everything more clear. That's what I meant by gratuitous use of automatic fire vs. realistic combat tactics.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
The more concise description is good, although I hope it hasn't lost any relevant related-trope links.
Rhymes with "Protracted."