Alright, so in TRS Badass Gay came up for discussion and it was agreed that there appears to big problem with the Badass X tropes in general, which needs to be sorted out until something can be ruled on for Badass Gay.
Here's a courtesy link: TRS page
. And Badass page with its subtropes. You can also visit the sandbox page here.
Noted Problems include:
- Tropes are just listings of characters people thing are badass who happen to have a certain trait. (The Badass + Trait Problem)
- Badass X as a naming scheme is actually very vague and doesn't give a lot of insight into what the character trope actually is, assuming it is a trope.
- Badass X as a naming scheme proliferates the use of Badass + Trait 'tropes'.
Suggested things to do include:
- Make it a requirement that a badass character trope means a character is "badass because of a trait", or "badass in spite of a trait".
- Renaming away from the Badass X naming scheme as much as possible.
- Cut, redefine or re-purpose things that are just Badass + trait.
There are also a lot of tropes that seem to be valid character-types, but have the naming scheme 'Badass X', when there's more to the trope than that. There are also a lot of prop or event or whatever tropes that need to be gone through as well.
Edited by Berrenta on May 15th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I liked it. It is basically the same but the tweaks are significant enough to make it useful for this purpose. I especially like the last sentence because it is concise.
I think we need to holler at the mods.
Requested input from my colleagues as it is not clear what the second crowner option actually entails.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Honestly we have two counter proposals for that specific option, we can run a crowner specifically for that.
- Merge every single Royalty and member of the Nobility from a lowly Gentleman and Knight up to King.
- Split based on roles of the royalty
- General King and General Duke, The King that rules from the front and actively enages in battle themselves. Their word is law and their sword is always sharp. Related to Military Dictator if portrayed as an Evil King or Queen.
- Warrior Prince and possibly Princess, the successor to throne and basically in training to be the King. If not the successor they will likely be The Evil Prince, extremely rarely will there be an Evil Princess as that role is reserved for a Queen. They will usually be leading a small military unit with trusted advisers placed there by the king to teach the prince.
- Warrior Noble Typically a Marquess, ruler of a frontier or disputed area. Or a Baron, a granted title by the king or emperor for their skill in battle or loyalty to the king. The latter often made their title via fighting and will continue to do so, skill in battle is expected to run in the family. These are expected to be a warrior or Retired Badass and not being one is quite non-standard. In Chinese and Japanese history these titles were often given posthumously along with new names to the most badass of the badassess, such as most of the generals featured in Romance Of The Three Kingdoms.
- Very closely related to a Warrior Caste system such as Knights, Spartiate, Kshatriya and Samurai.
edited 23rd Aug '17 12:58:42 AM by Memers
the second option is simply not what the crowner voted on, and off topic to Badass Princess cleanup. But they are perfectly fine tropes that should be written from scratch on TLP. I'll even personally throw in a hat to each of them.
Can we not stay on this Badass Princess clean up discussion forever?
edited 23rd Aug '17 2:42:52 AM by acrobox
Ok, I've read the whole Badass Princess discussion and here is my consideration:
This crowner should have never been hooked, it has created far too much confusion and no clear course of action with regards to the existing pages.
I am motioning that we throw it out completely and re-do the vote, but this time with options such as "redefine to X", "merge with Y to Z" and so.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The question is "what do we do with Badass Princess?" or "princess who fights"
The answer was redfine as a subtrope of Hidden Badass (i.e. she is underestimated because she looks like a dainty princess archetype, but is actually really strong) which became Pretty Princess Powerhouse.
And put examples where it's played straight because its expected that the princess would fight into Warrior Prince which was already vaguely gender neutral, based on examples on the page and listed related/sub tropes in its description (like Lady of War etc)
It makes no sense that the solution to what do you do with badass princess, is create an entire warrior noble caste system all with different tropes. If you want to do that fine, but its not even really a solution to the task at hand.
If the name Warrior Noble is a sticking point because it interferes with a potential warrior noble caste system of tropes, then the real decision we should be making if any is
- Call the gender neutral trope Warrior Noble (Warrior Prince and Warrior Princess redirect there)
- Let the name Warrior Prince stand, and just make Warrior Princess redirect there, as long as the text is explicitly gender neutral.
No, the sticking point is that there is no clear consensus on whether redefinition (and to what?), rename or even any action on Badass Princess is needed.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Even if two or three vocal individuals are opposed to it, isn't 20 positive votes (22 up, 2 down) on Pretty Princess Powerhouse clear consensus on what to redefine to?
edited 23rd Aug '17 3:40:06 AM by acrobox
It is not clear what the second crowner option entails, and some people were wondering if Pretty Princess Powerhouse is a placeholder name.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
A Noble includes anyone from a 'gentleman', aka Old Money that did not need to work, an Esquire or even a Knight on up to King... and that's just Medieval Europe ranks. You can not name it that.
Not to mention that the various ranks get treated differently in works as I have gone over. They are wholly different tropes at each rank. Especially the king and next in line of succession Princes.
Its a clusterfuck of roles meant to be warriors, such as Knights, those not and those in leadership positions. That would make it so large you cant even call it a subtrope of Royals Who Actually Do Something.
As I had said I am all for a Warrior Noble trope but it is something completely different than Warrior Prince, Warrior Princess Or those in power like a Warrior King.
edited 23rd Aug '17 5:33:12 AM by Memers
If Pretty Princess Powerhouse as a name is unclear, then we can do a name crowner for that.
As for option two, the point is to make Warrior Prince gender neutral, which it already pretty much is is (the difference between the trope proper and trope Sandbox i suggested are minimal. i.e. the initial trope already mentions Lady of War in the body, and lists both male and female tropes at the bottom of the description, and there's a smattering of princesses in the examples).
The thrust of the action behind the crowner options was simplified and put into paranthethese (renamed gender neutral Warrior Prince). It was written plainly and came out almost 3/4 in favor.
We can do another name crowner if the word "Noble" presumes to much. But i don't think gender neutrality was unclear in that option as written. The idea of merging princess examples into it as it would be expressly gender neutral is only one step of logic removed.
Ok, after consulting with other moderators I'll rule that this topic does not have the authority to rename Warrior Prince especially without a dedicated crowner, because this topic is only about Badass tropes and there was no tag on the Warrior Prince page. Thus a rename of that trope needs a dedicated TRS topic.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
With that in mind, I'd say that it's time to disambiguate Badass Princess and to begin wick moving. If folks want to rename Pretty Princess Powerhouse or make new tropes, they can use TRS and TLP respectively.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Without a crowner like that, I think Badass Princess only really needs a disambiguation. Warrior Princess should take over being its own page and spear to Warrior Prince.
With notes on how these are much rarer than Princes with them usually not in the line of succession, usually married off for political gain and when they exist they are almost uniformly good as evil tends to be exclusively God Save Us from the Queen!.
got it. No rename for warrior prince.
@Septimus, as for the Warrior Prince Sandbox, should I make those edits or is that not necessary?
edited 23rd Aug '17 11:12:35 PM by acrobox
If by edits you mean to put the text in Sandbox.Warrior Prince into Warrior Prince, then I am opposed. The trope is not gender neutral at all.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Then where does that leave characters like Azula who is every bit if not more of a warrior prince than Zuko.
Or any of the female Fire Emblem Lords.
There are many examples of women filling the 'warrior prince' archetype where it's not subversive in any way that invokes Pretty Princess Powerhouse. Beauty Equals Goodness and Hollywood Attractiveness may still stand, but she's respected as a warrior In-Universe as much as any prince.
A male filling a warrior prince role and a female filling a warrior prince role seems like a soft split at best.
edited 26th Aug '17 3:12:54 PM by acrobox
Even in the mediaeval period there was a distinction between the gentry and nobles — the nobles were the rank of baron and above, whereas the titles below the rank of baron (gentleman, esquire, knight, baronet) were not classified as nobles and were gentry only (landed or otherwise).
They were, however, sometimes described as 'petty/minor nobility' which is where the confusion starts. However, in both mediaeval and modern terminology, there is a very big line drawn between the ranks of baron and baronet to separate the 'proper' nobility from the lesser titles that encompasses most of the European systems.
In storytelling, too, where noble ranks are used, the emphasis tends to be on barons and above.
From what's being said here, it sounds like Badass Princess should be a disambiguation page and any examples that don't fall in one of the relevant existing tropes should be sandboxed to see if there''s a pattern forming that would inform the creation of a new trope.
edited 26th Aug '17 4:51:09 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
They fall exactly where they should in an explanation in a wick and on the page. In stuff like a matriarchal society it's a gender inversion, the same thing happens in a lot of other gender counterpart tropes.
Things like Oda Nobuna No Yabou also follow that.
You could make a Pretty Princess Powerhouse out of a Princely Young Man too that way... hell that page image is a pretty good example of a prince who is one.
To even include barons makes the trope too general. That's not to say a trope about Warrior Barons on up to Marquees and such shouldn't exist on its own, it should.
edited 26th Aug '17 5:28:05 PM by Memers
acrobox, if you want to discuss how broad Warrior Prince should be please use another thread such a Trope Talk. This thread is about the Badass family of tropes.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
It is very much a topic of discussion here with Badass Princess having the Warrior Princess redirect. Since we split off Pretty Princess Powerhouse the only examples left are the full on warrior princesses like Sun Shang Xiang in Dynasty Warriors.
He thinks it should be merged with Warrior Prince and expand the name to gender neutral Warrior Noble. However Warrior Princesses still have gender issues to go through such as getting married off to a potential enemy kingdom, Stay in the Kitchen mentality, overbearing fathers and such. And unlike Princess they are not usually the crown prince thus not in training to take over the kingdom.
Personally after thinking on it a Warrior Noble Daughter trope might work instead. Most Warrior noblewomen in stories in general have all those issues of not being the Heiress and such.
An example would be Laura in The Legend Of Heroes Trails Of Cold Steel, the daughter of Viscount Arseid the most badass person in the empire but is not a princess. Grew up a swordwoman of the highest order and she still had to fight her father on not sending her to a girls school for nobility which did not have any kind of classes fit for a warrior such as herself. Issues with No Guy Wants an Amazon. Talk about arranged marriage, although not by her father he wants her to marry the MC who is also a son of a noble but doesn't push it. Various bouts of sexism and so on.
edited 28th Aug '17 1:25:43 PM by Memers
No, Warrior Prince is not on topic. Please start a discussion elsewhere if you want to change that page. Warrior Princess, and only that redirect, can be changed here.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
So, next trope?
OH MY GOD; MY PARENTS ARE GARDENIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!!
Badass Princess wicks need to be done.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
who do we contact for the rename/redirect?