The "Dere" Family

'The rest' being... two. Three, counting a redirect that no-one really uses.

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Tsundere, Yandere, and Kuudere, with Dandere being the redirect no one uses, right?

And let's not make this another place to discuss Kuudere (yes, I know I'm the one who brought it up). We have a thread for that, and it is its own unique issue.

Correct, Discar.

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Dandere is the really messy one it's not really used outside of japan and our page on it is a disaster... Even though it's pretty much Shrinking Violet Love Interest, or Shrinking Violet with a crush. Nodoka, Shinobu, Hinata and their relationship with their series leads.

Even I won't defend that one much.

edited 11th Sep '11 4:12:33 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I have only ever seen one character that I would really define as being dandere and not some other related trope. So it's kind of pointless. Yangire is only tangentially related and what it means*

doesn't even make sense, so getting rid of that is acceptable. Kuudere is little better.

However, apart from these, I am not sure there is really much point to this thread. The current set of renames are being mandated and no indication has been given that our opinion of the matter is particularly relevant.

edited 11th Sep '11 5:55:06 PM by Arha

In the grand scheme of things, my opinion probably doesn't mean much. The only reason I'm even here is that I'm a little disconcerted about our Most Important Administrator thinking people like me have no patience for Japanese trope names. But speaking as a longtime lurker and someone almost completely oblivious about anime, I totally understand why it would be a good idea to keep Tsundere specifically as a name. It's a common concept without a way to concisely describe it in English without making it look like a mental illness.

The snowclones probably merit a rename, though, and they exacerbate the problem people are seeing with Tsundere, namely that people think it's anime-only and restrict examples to Japanese media across the site. As I see it, people don't just see Tsundere, but the entire family of -dere tropes, and they assume that since they're all Japanese and use the same basic naming pattern, they're Japan-specific. Tsundere on its own is easy enough to pick up. It's no different from Narm or Xanatos Gambit in that respect. People will learn and accept it. However, with a snowclone, you're taking the name of a well-known trope and changing it, making it "well-known trope but with a certain detail changed." (This is, as I understand it, why we're only eliminating snowclone titles that have nothing to do with the title it's cloning — e.g., Dropped A Bridget On Him and tropes like that.) However, when the relevant bit changes from one bit of Japanese to another bit of Japanese, how do we know what's changed? You look at Yandere and think "okay, so it's like Tsundere, but...with a Yan in front." That starts to stretch it for me. When you have an entire family of tropes named in Japanese whose relationship to one another you can only comprehend if you understand the relevant Japanese, that can create a little bit of a lockout.

I'm not an anime fan; I'll come out straight with that. This site is frankly the only reason I can tell my Haruhi from my Shinji. But I'm willing to believe that Tsundere is a term used in the wider Internet to describe a phenomenon that's not easily described in English. I read the trope, I get the trope, and I've seen it before in non-anime sources. But it's hard to describe, and there's a pre-existing term in a foreign language. Let's use it as a loanword and add it to our varied lexicon.

</extended rant> Apologies for the long-windedness.

Fascinating

My own experience was that Tsundere was starting to be used outside the anime fandom, but being an anime fan myself (though ironically opposed to Japanese named tropes in general), I wasn't certain if perhaps I was drawing from a tainted pool.

Good to hear from a non-anime fan that they've seen the same thing.

Back to the general topic:

Currently we have Dandere as an example free fanspeak page. Nobody seems to care much what happens to it. Not even the anime fans.

Yangire is going through an ugly and complicated restructuring and renaming.

Kuudere is being renamed by admin fiat. The current discussion about an English name is rather turbulent.

That just leaves Tsundere and Yandere right?

What I've been seeing is a strong support for leaving Tsundere alone, even by non-anime fans and even those that want to rename all the rest. Is that correct? Is there anyone who wants to speak for renaming Tsundere?

If that is so then that only leaves Yandere.

Shall focus on that trope then? What should we do with it?

Is it possible we could make this a more specific subtrope of a more generalized "Fatal Attraction" like trope?

edited 11th Sep '11 9:10:57 PM by Sackett

I still think Yandere should be left alone. It beat at least one rename that I know of, and is well-used off the wiki. Again, not to the extent of Tsundere, but still.

My thoughts too!

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.

I'm honestly neutral on Yandere.

On the one hand, it doesn't have anything close to the level of independent (i.e. neither this site nor anime fansite) usage as Tsundere has, and I don't think it's anywhere close to a loanword, especially since we do have English terms we can use instead.

On the other hand, it's widespread enough here that for me to support a rename would need some reason beyond just "it's Gratuitous Japanese".

Renaming Yandere is... not particularly sensible. It's still a massive trope, even if not at Tsundere's level—but how many tropes are?

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Looking through the dere tropes, there does seem to be a running issue on all of them that they are all seen as Always Female and Always Anime even when they aren't.

edited 12th Sep '11 7:53:51 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Well, it is often female, which is what much of the Always Female index means (there's a reason that's in TRS). It is a much more popular trope in anime, but it definitely exists elsewhere. Its just a little harder to spot without all the lampshades and so on. I have been trying to add them where appropriate, though.

Well the Tsundere page in particular says it's female only, except for some cases of Boys' Love or whatever.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

They are Mostly Female the Always part is what I have been trying to get rid of in that TRS... No one took though.

The reason really is Abuse Is Ok When It Is Female On Male. A male pulling off Tsundere on a female is seen as flat out abusive in a call the cops bad way vs the guy is just a Butt-Monkey. Yandere comes off as Complete Monster Bastard Boyfriend more than if it's a girl. They both come off differently due to it is a Double Standard a girl will be watched liked (or tolerated at minimum), a guy will be hated .

Kuudere however is popular with males the Snarky closed dejected type which usually gets paired in a Savvy Guy, Energetic Girl in her efforts to break that, he will show signs of a Dere side before the event ends and it's back to normal. Will he fully hit Defrosting Ice King? Depends on the series, most don't due to it seeming like he becomes a Door Mat.

Yangire Crazy Guys tend to go in The Joker Silence Of The Lambs or The Shining direction and not Insane Moe.

And on a fully 3D character a Dere is hard to spot and don't define the character itself, so less likely to be potholed, examples lists are all quite good though.

edited 12th Sep '11 10:45:20 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I think I've mentioned something similar before, but why not model these pages after the Zettai Ryouiki page? The main trope, which can be given an Engliche title, could be named as their Japanese counterpart in a section where we expound on subtypes of the trope. (Instances where the 'mask' is genuine, fake, whether or not there is more 'cute' than 'crazy', etc.)

For example:

Cute but Crazy

-Trope Description-

Subtypes: Type one: The Yangire. "Person in does question is cute but crazy, and doesn't have a set trigger like a love interest to set them off; they're just crazy."

Type two: More 'cute' than 'crazy' (You can even make up a new Japanese term to stick here! It'll be like a mini-version of The Four Temperaments, but with Japanese terms instead of Greek ones.): -Subtype Description-

And so on.

This way, you can have an English title, some non-gratuitous Japanese, and we can be inventive. Thoughts?

edited 13th Sep '11 5:51:41 AM by DisasterGrind

Bad example. Yangire is broader than that, which is why it was renamed. It can refer to multiple tropes.

I vote do nothing.

^ Why?

My troper wall

I don't want Tsundere and Yandere to be renamed, because there's lots of inbounds and stuff, and they're also terms.

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.

Renaming Yandere would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Renaming Tsundere would be aiming for something more important. :|

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The chest?

Good metaphor.

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.

Speaking as someone who has been a casual anime fan for decades (and been exposed to serious fans for nearly as long), I've never seen any of these except Tsundere off this wiki. So that's the only one I think we need to keep. I'm neutral on, but kind of dislike, Yandere.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I've seen Yandere on Fanfiction.net and youtube. Never really been on any anime sites... well, for anything except watching.

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Neither of those places say it's spread beyond anime fans. I haven't heard it anywhere but here honestly.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick