Dispute over the definition/description: Logical Weakness

So, wait, this attack thing works by bypassing magical shields? I thought it was some sort of Smite Evil. Would the shield-bypass thing do more damage if the target wasn't in demon-mode or whatever?

If shield-bypass works equally well on demons and non-demons, then it's not Logical Weakness. If shield-bypass is more effective on demons than it is on non-demons, then it is Logical Weakness. If it will work on non-demons but it's the only thing that works on demons, then it's Achilles' Heel, not Logical Weakness.

No! The basic Zanmaken is Super Effective against spirits in general - including ghosts - and demons in particular (being capable of dispelling Demonic Possession is proof enough that spirits/demons have a specific property that Zanmaken is specifically exploiting), while the Second Form of the Zanmaken, known as Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi, adds in the property of bypassing any obstacle between the user and the intended target, including magical shields.

And I will repeat again: It's only been stated that Negi's overuse of Magia Erebea is turning him into a demonlike being, not into an actual demonic being.

For everyone's convenience, the following links provide brief compilations of the various Shinmei-ryuu techniques.

Vetus, Love Hina Wiki, Negima Wiki.

edited 25th May '11 10:27:06 AM by MarqFJA

No, it's not smite evil. It's 'go through barriers and hit non physical objects.' There is no indication that it does more damage to demons, simply that it does do damage to demons. Not that demons are evil anyway in this series.

It works on everyone. I guess it might be Achilles' Heel, but from what we've seen it isn't the only thing to work on demons. Nor are all demons capable of doing the intangible or possession thing.

I'm starting to think we should just ban Negima examples since everyone just tries to jam them in funny places and starts edit wars over them. It's basically just flame bait at this point. Seriously, 90% of the time I see examples for it it's people trying to jam things in because they work if you squint and ignore half the trope. Let's just ban it to it's own page and keep the edit wars about it off the rest of the wiki.

edited 25th May '11 10:29:11 AM by shimaspawn

Eh? Its not Flame Bait... Its debate fuel for sure but that's about it. There is a reason why the Negima page is at 936 pages there is a lot of content, tropes, subversions, inversions, Zig Zaging Trope, Fanservice, Hair Colors, Body types with canon three sizes and size rankings, Latin, Sanskirt, various spells with multipage writeups on how they work (this ability we are debating on hasn't gotten a said writeup yet though) and many many more. (Did the Research is a Meme for Negima.)

This issue is rather complex as the actual ability is a callback to 11 years ago in Love Hina.

edited 25th May '11 10:37:18 AM by Raso

So it sounds like Zanmaken in general is anti-demon (backed up by the wiki; it "disperses demonic spirits"). The fact that the "Second Strike" variant bypasses obstacles (from the wiki: "cuts a demonic spirit behind a person without injuring the person") doesn't seem to be the point.

I guess it counts as Logical Weakness, but it's not as obvious as it seemed at first glance.

The obstacle-bypassing is relevant, Native Jovian. Without that property, the attack would most probably never manage to break through a powerful multi-layered magical Deflector Shields (Negi's has around 3-5 layers). As it is, said property makes it such that said barrier might as well be inexistent in the first place.

edited 25th May '11 10:44:59 AM by MarqFJA

But is that actually covered by Logical Weakness? And if it works on everyone and just happens to also hit demons as well, is it still Logical Weakness? We've seen it hit people who aren't demons.

1) Who are those people?

2) You've brought up a point that I've raised in the OP, but has yet to be addressed by anyone else: Based on the current Logical Weakness article, what is the definition and/or boundaries of the trope?

edited 25th May '11 10:47:36 AM by MarqFJA

1. Rakan showed Setsuna how it worked and aimed slightly wrong. Negi took a minor head injury.

2. Sounds fair. I obviously don't think the Negima example qualifies, but tightening up the definition to say why would help. To me the definition seems clear enough, but since it's a matter of debate it may not be.

Alright, let's try this again. Does the Zanmaken (not the Second Strike part, just the regular Zanmaken) work better against demons than non-demons? Does it do more damage to Negi because he's demon-y?

Logical Weakness is a weakness to a power or technique that makes sense given the nature of the power/technique. Not being able to use Playing with Fire powers underwater is a Logical Weakness, for example (because you can't set things on fire underwater). This is as opposed to Kryptonite Factor (where the power's weakness has to do with its origin) or Weaksauce Weakness (where the power's weakness is something lame).

According to what we have been told, it's more effective against Magia Erebea-enhanced Negi than one would expect for someone of that level of Super-Toughness. Give me a few minutes while I dig out the relevant pages from Mangafox....

edited 25th May '11 11:13:11 AM by MarqFJA

We don't know if it works better against non demons. All we know is that it was designed to actually be able to hit them. I would assume it doesn't hit them any harder. Specifically to hit them when they're possessing someone. It's phrased as 'hitting the demon behind someone' for the general theme of those techniques that go through barriers or obstacles.

^ Not quite. ME in the form he was using doesn't give super toughness. He was in fragile speedster mode. Anything that actually hit him would do a lot of damage.

edited 25th May '11 11:13:44 AM by Arha

My understanding was that absorbing Lightning spells does nothing to enhance his durability and raw attack power; he's only a Fragile Speedster in comparison to the Incedium Gehennae, which enhances attack and defense power but does little to improve his speed, form or to Jack Rakan. In either case, his unenhanced stats still remain at the high level they were before he starts using Magia Erebea.

[1]: Zanganken (Rock-Cutting Sword) Ni-no-Tachi bypasses Negi's shields, yet do no lasting damage on his person, as his Lightning Form is partially-intagible (due to the elemental magic being used) and automatically dematerializes to avoid physical damage, as Godel notices.

[2]: Godel prepares to strike, Negi prepares his shields...

[3]: But to no avail, as Zanmaken (Demon/Magic-Cutting Sword) Ni-no-Tachi completely bypasses his shields and lands a very bloody blow in spite of his Lightning Form's semi-intangibility.

[4]: Godel shows than Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi can be used to vaporize clothing without harming their wearers.

[5]: Setsuna explains the nature of Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi.

[6][7][8]: Rakan demonstrates that Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi can cause damage to physical objects... Though exactly how destructive the technique normally is is made ambiguous due to Rakan himself being absurdly powerful.

[9] (middle panels): Negi has a flashback to Setsuna warning him of facing a Shinmeiryuu master head-on.

edited 25th May '11 11:39:30 AM by MarqFJA

It's not that it inflicts super effective damage, it's that it inflicts damage at all. He's a fragile speedster because his defenses are left at his normal level but his speed shoots through the roof. He can't take a hit from fighters at his own level.

With his shields he can take hits (He didnt die from taking a hit from Rakan of all people) Remember Magic Shields are deflector shields that absorb impacts [1], hence what makes "second form" so effective on him.

edited 25th May '11 11:53:26 AM by Raso

@Shima: Banning examples from a series goes against the point of the wiki. If examples don't fit in the trope, just delete them. You do have a point though, there are way too many Fan Wank examples and massive entries that are too big. But I'm just going to assume that you're exaggerating and move on.

In any case, given the current definition of the trope, I don't think the Negima example counts. A logical weakness is something that's based in real-world physics, which obviously don't apply in this case. It might count if the attack in question was powered by holy water or something, but as it is it's just an attack that happens to be effective in a particular situation. Having it as an example would be like saying that a tank's Logical Weakness is a giant bomb.

And that's another thing that I don't understand: Where are you getting that "it has to be grounded in real-life physics" requirement? Because I don't see it anywhere in the article description.

I wouldn't have phrased it like that, I think, but that's basically what the trope is going for.

Logical as in real-world logic. Common sense. As opposed to Magic A Is Magic A.

^ Or as in Deconstruction. I took a major whack at the description earlier today (might've dented something, you never know for sure with these things) but that's the gist I was left with.

edited 26th May '11 12:27:14 AM by Stratadrake

Bump for resolution.

To summarize Negi's case:

• As a Magic user, he is capable of quickly erecting powerful Deflector Shields for defense.
• While in Shock and Awe Elemental Shapeshifter Super Mode, he is essentially Nigh-Invulnerable (of the Made of Air sort) to physical damage via a Turn-Yourself-Into-Electricity Defense Mechanism Superpower, except by "broken" characters like Jack Rakan.
• However, as noted by Setsuna Sakurazaki, said Elemental Shapeshifter Super Mode causes him to become quite close to demons in nature, making him vulnerable to Demon Slayer techniques such as the Shinmeiryuu's Zanmaken. This is shown in above linked images, where the Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi strike completely ignores his aforementioned Defense Mechanism Superpower, and deals the same damage as if he were in a normal state.
• Now, the normal Zanmaken might not pose much of a problem since he has Deflector Shields to block it. However, the Second Form of the Zanmaken is able to completely bypass said shields.

Conclusion: As a result of the nature of Negi's Elemental Shapeshifter power and the all-obstacles-bypassing property of Shinmeiryuu's "Second Form" techniques, their benefits are all but negated against a Shinmeiryuu master who can use "Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi".

Does Logical Weakness apply? If we are to assume that it does not, then what does then? Achilles' Heel?

edited 27th May '11 12:08:18 PM by MarqFJA

On a different vein it might be an Incidental Weakness (which would be maybe a sister trope to Logical Weakness) in which its completely unintended but its still Super Effective vs it. IE a tech created to be Super Effective on Object A but works just as well Object B.

The page entries itself though seem to be off as well like.

edited 27th May '11 12:21:38 PM by Raso

I said "negated" because Zanmaken (or at least the Ni-no-Tachi form) has been proven to be capable of considerable physical damage, ranging from vaporzing clothes to blasting a floating giant rock apart (as shown by Rakan in the linked images a few posts above); and a glancing hit to Negi's head caused significant bleeding (though the magnitude might be distored by Rule of Funny, as often occurs in Negima). In other words, Zanmaken Ni-no-Tachi negates the defense advantage of both the magical shields and the Lightning Form's Made of Air auto-defense-mechanism, forcing Negi to take as much damage as he would have if he were in his normal, non-Magia Erebea-enhanced state (and persumably neutralizing any "normal" mana enhancement of his durability as well). That poses a great problem to him since he is not used to having tank so much damage, being reliant on his magical barriers absorbing the burnt of the blows that are directed to him.

edited 27th May '11 1:25:26 PM by MarqFJA

This is probably a discussion for the Negima thread. But there is more than one Ni-no-Tachi move and they all do different things except for the fact they can just go though objects.

edited 27th May '11 1:37:44 PM by Raso