Gender and the Bechdel Test in your work

I have a lot of trouble writing females beyond one or two defining traits, even though I'm a girl myself. I wish I knew why.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."

Try not to think of them as male and female but as just people. Men and women really aren't that different.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

What anne said. Also, you'll never get better if you don't practice.

...I'm trying. At least three of them could be worked into the plot, but I can't figure out what exactly they'd be doing at the moment. Better wait for it to hit me at the end of the week, 'cause that's how almost every other story-related issue is solved.

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."

However, I sometimes have a problem of putting too much females into a work. For an early sci-fi idea, I had to change a female character into one of my standard teen male protagonists to prevent a gender imbalance on the team post-betrayal. For Kira Is Justice, I created one character that is yet to appear to balance out the Wammy House's side. It's just that females are so fascinating.

The problem is reaching a point where they converse.

Oh, and the sci-fi idea (Cyborg Assoication) probably passes, because there's some instances like a nice talk between teacher and student, mother and daughter, plans of attack and betrayal.

Cold Wizard of Woodenloo, my unfinished 205-page story from elementray school fails, because there's only two female characters relevant to the plot, one that was one-shot and shoehorned. In hindsight, it's bad, but great compared to what students my grade wrote.

edited 1st May '11 7:49:41 PM by chihuahua0

If they can't participate in the actual plot plot, have side plots or character arcs.

For example, the character quote for the main plot of my story is filled in with five males and one female, so there's really not much room for other characters to participate in the plot without clunking it up, but I have a variety of supporting women anyway. There's the MC's aunt and mother, who are both distinct characters and contribute to the MC's development. The main character shares a poor relationship with his mother that doesn't change, because while the MC changes, his mother doesn't, and in the interaction the two have at the end we can see that.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

See, my problem is more that none of my characters have all that much significance aside from their relation to the protagonist, and the protagonist is male.

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...

As a thought exercise, imagine your story if the main protagonist was a girl/woman. How does that make the story different? It absolutely will, but how exactly does it?

For example, today I've been brainstorming a story with a male protagonist. I built a personality for him— he's messy and careless (he doesn't clean his room and throws on clothes he's worn five days in a row) and he's irresponsible. A minor arc is his dad wanting him to man up and take responsibility for himself, which would be resolved when he cleans his room without prompting.

Then I thought (because of this thread, actually), why does the protag have to be a guy? Can it work if it's a girl? So I changed it up a bit, and she's still messy and irresponsible, but now there's also an added layer to some things she does. If she wears the same clothes every day, the girls at school make fun of her. Her mother bemoans the fact she's too lazy to wear makeup and do her hair. Those are all new things, and fun things— they add dynamism to the story. But at the same time, I feel the father arc is less potent— fathers don't tell their girls to "man up," and while the responsibility arc could still work I don't think it would have the same emotional impact. A girl cleaning her room seems somehow more of a "girls should do housework" Aesop than a "growing up means taking responsibility" message.

In the end, I think I'll stick with the male protagonist for this particular story, but it was a neat little thought experiment. I'd like to see what other people's stories would turn out like.

Thanks for the all fish!

Actually, there wouldn't really be a story because my version of Beowulf would be more comfortable in a woman's role anyway (which still isn't perfect, but he's less likely to be stripped of social status) and Hygelac wouldn't see a need to send him to Grendel. The story's all about how the nature of the main character clashes with the society in which he lives.

In the case of Project One Fifty Four, the story would be pretty much unchanged, but because of the nature of the protagonist (a clone) this would also have to make the rest of the eponymous project all female as well. But then, he wouldn't have a goatee.

edited 1st May '11 8:37:39 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

Huh. If my main character was a girl:

• The biggest change would be that she'd be a lesbian (or bisexual), because her relationship with a woman is a big part of the story. The story takes place in the future though, so some variant of Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions would probably prevent this from creating any extra conflict. It would, however, create entirely different connotations for the reader in her eventual decision to revolt against the government-instead of resembling a reactionary protestor, she'd probably resemble a progressive protestor.
• Knowing her boss, she'd probably be sexually harassed.
• Her hatred for a specific minor character would probably feel different. Instead of "I'm too smart to go out with The Libby" it might feel more like "I deserve the popularity way more than The Libby does".
• Her best friend might start to feel like the Token Straight White Male.
• Assuming that she's bisexual instead of a lesbian, I could picture her wondering if she's infatuated with one of her fellow revolutionaries.
• Her death scene, which involves a giant tentacle monster, would undoubtedly recieve more Rule34.

I think that should be all, but I'm not sure.

edited 1st May '11 8:47:23 PM by PDown

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...

If July was a girl... I do not think it would make that much difference, honestly, except that it would just be one of the scores and scores of heterosexual Paranormal Romance already oversaturating the market. However, does this make the fact that my protagonist is male just a gimmick?

Well, Justin Peterson would:

• Become either Justine, or Justice.
• Would come off as either more cold, nerdy, or bookish.
• Be a little more emotional.
• Have more lesbian or sisterly implications with her Shinigami.
• More makeup.
• Comes off as more sexier as times, especially later in the series.
• His occisional snarks would be more sassy.
• Her quirks would be even wierder.
• Her cousin would have a different brotherly relationship.
• A part of her backstory would be even more shocking.
• She would get glasses.
• She'll come off by the audience as a character created by a fangirl.

Quite a lot, I'll say. I actually thought of turning Justin into a girl at one point, but the last reason kept me from doing that. That, and gender balance. Besides, I like this character. Maybe in a Gender Flip Cross-over story?

But turning him female would let me pass the Bechdel Test more quickly.

Shades passes.

Pretty easy, though, when the only two characters of any real significance are asexual women.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!

I just realized. If I don't count the Humanoid Abomination as male, then this story barely even passes the reverse Bechdel test.

Holy crap, I just realized that I might actually be able to make my work pass the Bechdel Test simply by changing the gender of one of the news anchors. Would it be worth it?

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...

Do it. Or the Straw Feminists will jump you first chance they get and pick your bones clean.

Still might not qualify, as they're discussing a murder of a man that was committed by a man because of another man.

edited 1st May '11 10:03:29 PM by PDown

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...

Make it a lesbian love triangle gone horribly wrong and call it a day.

The reporter in the film Vantage Point was written as a male. They cast Sigourney Weaver for gender ballence reasons.

edited 1st May '11 10:36:18 PM by HistoryMaker

The Bechdel Test seems kind of iffy to me. I mean, what do you do when the female characters are equally as interesting and well-developed as the male ones, but then don't have a conversation with one another? And to what extent do you define "exists solely in tandem to men"?

edited 1st May '11 10:56:19 PM by DonZabu

"Wax on, wax off..." "But Mr. Miyagi, I don't see how this is helping me do Karate..." "Pubic hair is weakness, Daniel-san!"

It really exists just to show you when your female characters are, well, revolving around your male ones.

Use your head to figure out what to do in other circumstances.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!

I can't remember the last time I wrote a story with a single main protagonist instead of an ensemble cast. However, I can't say that gender-flipping my characters would have a huge impact on things. In my comics, if I did this to just one of the Nerds, it would probably have the biggest impact. Although the three Smart Guys would be uninvolved

, most of them have your stereotypical nerd experience with women, so it's possible that whoever became the female character would pick up a probably Unwanted Harem. However, I doubt that would get much focus, as I'm not that good at writing romance. Also, if one particular character became female, it would do in the Official Couple due to Incompatible Orientation.

Overall, though, I doubt it would have any real effect on the character's personality, because compared to other things that might influence how I write a character, gender is distinctly secondary. It's not completely the case, but I believe a lot of modern gender traits are entirely cultural in nature, and as my works rarely feature the modern world as a main setting, I'm inclined to throw them out entirely. For works in sufficiently genderblind societies, like my hard science fiction work, I could literally choose my characters' genders by flipping a coin (or more likely rolling a die - things are a little weird in the 28th century). I find the idea that rewriting a story with the protagonist the opposite gender would "absolutely" make things different a little questionable, overall.

Finally, to everyone who been raising concerns/complaints: Folks, it's only a test, not the be-all end-all to determining whether your work is secretly sexist. It's about mindset more than anything else, as I believe the OP pointed out.

edited 1st May '11 11:43:32 PM by nrjxll

Any couples I have had or had only talked about romance with each other and not with third parties. The fact that I have not YET written two female characters on the same side talk to each other makes me fail this, but hell no one talks about their romantic relationships except with their significant other.

Romance is kind of rare in my works.

But hey, I am adding another female protagonist into the mix possibly, so I may pass this test soon. Just figuring out what kind of character I want/need for the mix. Still having trouble figuring out some assignments for some characters, that is, 'make them a main character or recurring side character?'

as of the 2nd of Nov. has 6 weeks for a broken collar bone to heal and types 1 handed and slowly

Well, since Girls' Love is pretty much my Author Appeal genre of choice, my stories almost always pass. Now the reverse...

My old fanfic barely passes, Sasuke and Kakashi have a very short conversation concerning the plot.

My current story passes with flying colors on all accounts, mostly because the female leads are a Battle Couple and the rest of the Five-Man Band is fairly diverse, including a human, an angel, and a succubus.

No one believes me when I say angels can turn their panties into guns.

If I changed Taren to female, absolutely nothing would change. Well, maybe there'd be a little consternation at the beginning when his captors find out, but all in all no change.

I'd do it, to, if his personality wasn't so settled already that it's impossible for me to think of him like that.

Milo? Things would be very different.

Be not afraid...