Headscratchers: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
In the Wind Waker, it's implied/speculated that the Rito evolved from the Zora of Ocarina of Time. This bugs me on several levels. Firstly, to go from fish to bird would require a lizard-stage evolution first. Where are these dodongo-zoras, and why would they evolve into lizards? What evolutionary advantage does being a reptile give? Secondly, the world was just flooded! Why would FISH-PEOPLE evolve into BIRDS?! That seems like a disadvantage considering the world is just a giant ocean now!
You're falling into a classic TV-evolution trap. There is no reason whatever that becoming a bird-man from being a fish-man would require an intermediate lizard-man stage. It's also important to notice that an amphibious race like the Zora would indeed be massively inconvenienced by the kind of change that would result from Hyrule flooding. You just ask a saltwater fish how it likes melting icecaps.
But Zora seem to live in freshwater. There's only one kind of water in Hyrule as of Oo T (starts at Zora spring, becomes Zora River, ends at Lake Hylia), and I don't think Hylians can drink saltwater, so the Zora River must be freshwater. Assuming the gods flooded Hyrule with pure H2O, the Zora would have no trouble at all living in the Great Sea.
It's an analogy. Of course vice versa would be equally troublesome.
Actually, in Majora's Mask, Zora lived in the sea.
Those are completely different Zoras.
Then shouldn't they have adapted to the new water environment, rather than taking to what little land there was (as they had, before they received wings)?
Magic, perhaps. Back in the Old Days, the Zora and the Hyrulians were tight. It's possible that they chose to stay with the Hylians, teaching them how to survive on the sea, rather than simply abandon them to their fate. Maybe Lord Jabun or one of the Goddesses transformed them, so it wasn't a slow series of patches so much as an upgrade.
Possibly, the Rito were always there, just high in the mountains where link never went- the Zora never left thier homes and stayed in the sea in Hyrule. This is probably an Epileptic Tree.
Or maybe the Rito aren't the Zora. Think about it, the Zora worshipped Jabu-Jabu. Jabun was on Great Fish Island. In the ruins of the island, you can see fishing boats and the remnants of a village that looks a lot like the Zoras' seaside area in Majora's Mask. This troper thinks the Zora just hid in Wind Waker when Ganondorf destroyed their home.
Eiji Aonuma confirmed the Zora-Rito connection in something called "Zelda Box" that Japan got around The Wind Waker's release.
Although the previous Sage of the Earth Temple, Laruto, was a Zora. This troper is fairly sure the game implies/outright states that Medli is Laruto's descendant. In addition to some of the evolutionary questions raised above, this troper is curious why fish-turned-bird people would take over the Gorons' traditional fiery volcano home. Fire + feathers = good idea?!
Phantom Hourglass also categorically confirms that the Rito are descended from the Zora. You can collect "Zora Scales" which the game describes as having belonged to the ancestors of the Rito. Doesn't get clearer than that.
Exactly when was that said? There's no such text in Phantom Hourglass at all.
I vaguely recall that being stated somewhere, but can't remember where exactly. Follow this link for the Treasure descriptions. The one for the Zora Scale says "It is said that a Zora dropped this rare and sparkling scale!"
The amphibian stage for the Zoras is that weird freaky green design they had in Link to the Past. They looked a bit like frogs.
Actually, the 2D Zora design is more fish-like than the 3D design, which if anything looks dolphin-like.
It's probably not evolution so much as they were transformed by their Sky God (much like the Kokiris were changed into the free-floating Koroks after the flood), which also explains why they have to go back to Valoo for wings — they're not natural, so they don't pass on.
Exactly. Zora may (or may not) be able to live in salt water (the games don't agree on this, with some having ocean-only Zora and some having freshwater-only.) but for whatever reason the Zora couldn't live in the great sea (Heck, this could've been mandated by the goddesses as a way to keep Hyrule a secret/sealed.) They didn't evolve, though, such an evolution would take hundreds of millions of years, not a hundred. Instead, it's pretty clear that they were changed by Valoo into the Rito.
This seems the most likely answer. If Hyrule was intended to be permanently sealed and hidden away beneath a great ocean, then leaving around an aquatic race would be risky. The goddesses obviously meant businesses when they decided the country's time had come to an end.
Wasn't there a tree that the gods forced the change so they wouldn't discover the old Hyrule?
Um, yeah. The Great Sea is described as a fishless sea. Considering what you hit if you go too far down, it makes sense that fish of all kinds (including the Zora) would scramble to find somewhere more hospitable.
Except that, contrary to the salvage guys and Ganon. it clearly isn't a fishless sea. You encounter Gyorgs and Fishmen all over the place, while Orca has all those shark jaws diplayed in his house. Unless the developers are trying to say that sharks aren't fish, the "fishless sea" idea simply isn't true. Plus, those sharks have to eat something other than Link...
Perhaps by "fish" they referred to the kind that you could put in a bottle in other games.
Possibly it means that there are fish in the Great Sea, but so few that trying to make a living off of fishing is totally pointless. The Gyorg are probably eating those, and in hard times, each other. It might make sense that the Zora would leave the water if there's really not enough fish to sustain them, unless they want to tangle with a shark every time they want to eat.
Evolutionary answer: Zora are already amphibious. Ocarina Zoras leave the water and walk on land all the time. Zora's Domain has more land than it does water, and their king has a dry throne. They aren't fish, they're amphibians. Now, assuming that the world around Hyrule has oceans, that is where the water for flooding Hyrule would have come from. To flood Hyrule permanently as has happened in Wind Waker, the oceans would have to rise until they covered all of Hyrule, and remain there. Zoras being predominantly freshwater creatures, the sudden onset of saltwater would destroy their lungs and kill them. Zoras being amphibious, those that survived the flood would have done so by clinging to what vestiges of land remain above the ocean after it's risen. At this point, we're left with an amphibious race that can't actually survive in the water anymore, and that isn't naturally equipped to exist solely on land. Whether evolution or Valoo happened next, their only chance for survival at that point is to adapt.
How is it, that Tetra's skin-colour changes with clothes she's wearing? Because that's the only real change! I got about Zelda's hair-length and tried it out: You NEED that much hair to actually make Tetra's hairstyle, so her hairlength doesn't change! It's just the skin! It's like she was using "Anti-tan" and "Insta-tan".
Or, y'know, makeup. To cover the actual tan when she wants to look princess-like.
Or...the Triforce. Perhaps Tetra's parents wished to hide her lineage?
Why do people obsess over Tetra's tan disappearing when she becomes Zelda, but say nothing about when the same thing happens in Ocarina of Time. Sheik's skin becomes significantly lighter when she reverts to Zelda. It's not just "being revealed" it's an actual transformation.
Because Shiek is somebody who is in disguise; we saw what OOT's Zelda looked like as a child, and Shiek is pretty different in many ways, which makes sense because changing things like eye color, skin color, physical build, and so on if possible are a big help when hiding. But Tetra is just assumed to be what she normally looks like, just a girl who is raised as a pirate instead of a princess, and thus having tanned skin and tomboyish clothes rather than pale, powdered skin and a dress. So they give her a dress, okay, we can live with that... but where does the skin come in?
Maybe Tetra was just really dirty and the Triforce cleaned her up? Her hair also looked a bit shinier and cleaner.
Living a life at sea sure builds up a tan, le's just assume magic just undid all of that.
It's possible that this is a cultural concept that was Lost in Translation. Historical projections of regal, feminine beauty in East Asian history are tied to the ideal of pale, whitened skin. Nobility idled their time away through personal pursuits rather than hard labor, so their untanned skin was symoblic of their class. Her change in coloration may be representative of this shift.
Skyward Sword proposes a possible answer to this. The revelation that Princess Zelda is the reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia explains the mystery of why all the Zeldas look extremely similar, in contrast to the varying appearances of the Links. It's possible that the reason Tetra's skin tone changes when she becomes Zelda is because her body is being transformed in order to, as all Zeldas before her, resemble the Goddess. Tetra is Zelda as she was actually born and lives, while "Princess Zelda" is Zelda as the mortal form of the Goddess, and her appearance changes accordingly. This isn't an issue encountered with other Princess Zeldas in the series, because every other Zelda has been born into royalty and tradition, and raised to be Princess Zelda, while Tetra was not.
Speaking of The Wind Waker: After the magical time-suspension forcefields holding the ocean away from old Hyrule were deactivated, flooding it, why didn't the sea level at the surface drop at all?
The ocean is supposedly covering most of the world. If such a small percentage of water is suddenly missing, you just wouldn't notice.
Hyrule seems like a relatively small kingdom. So why, when Ganondorf escapes in TWW, do the goddesses flood the planet? Not just Hyrule, the entire planet bar a few mountaintops? (On that note, New Hyrule is a huge mountaintop with it's own damn geography.) I mean, really, just raise the land around the place and flood the basin formed. No need to flood the whole world.
Well, since it's a Hylian legend, perhaps they simply had no concept of the literal size of the world.
But Labrynna and Holodrum, Hyrule's neighboring kingdoms, were probably flooded as well, and they were known and accessible by, at least, Hyrule's royalty. Who would think Hyrule was the whole world? Definitely not the goddesses, as the Triforce was able to teleport Link over. So why flood the world? Then again, Labrynna and Holodrum may or may not be neighbors of New Hyrule rather than Flooded Hyrule. But there is still no way Flooded Hyrule can not have trading partners and hence, knowledge of there being more to the world than just Hyrule.
Yeh...I always figured Labrynna and Holodrum were neighboring New Hyrule. (Though the "different timelines" theory at least intrigues me.) Well, that's the timeline for ya.
Well maybe the 'the world' just isnt all that big, maybe Hyrule IS 'the world' (aside from a few other lands). Or maybe the Goddesses are just huge jerkasses...
The world's got to be that big, look at the Great Sea. Even if the whole overworld map in TWW was the size of Hyrule (Hyrule probably wasn't that big), there's still what we see in PH and wherever New Hyrule is. Plus, in TWW, at the edge of the map you can still see that the Great Sea goes on for much, much longer, but the King of Red Lions stops you from going further because those waters are much more dangerous, meaning it's definitely not just the other side of the map. The Goddesses are either jerkasses or there is some other reason to kill countless innocent beings (including all the fish in the sea.)
Actually, it was stated that PH takes place in "The World of the Ocean King"- possibly an alternate world- so its Great Sea may or may not not actually take up any space in Hyrule or its surroundings.
Perhaps by the time the Goddesses got around to drowning the place, Ganondorf's power and corruption had spread that far. Zelda did say in Ocarina of Time that he'd take over the entire world if he could.
It could be that they were simply unable to isolate the flooding to just Hyrule alone, given how massive it would had to have been to have any lasting effect against Ganon. The Goddesses were faced with a Sadistic Choice, and even they, with all their power, were unable to find a way around it...flood the entire world to stop Ganondorf from conquering Hyrule and sending it into an age of darkness that makes the Bad Future from Ocarina of Time look like an episode of Hamtaro, or let Ganondorf run free and unopposed, dooming Hyrule and everyone who lived there...and eventually the rest of the world, once he realized there were lands other than Hyrule. With the first choice, there was at least a small hope of salvation, so they reluctantly went with it.
We're also approaching the issue from a human perspective - time is endless from a god's. To the goddesses, having to destroy Hyrule may have been a unfortunate and necessary choice, but it's also one that will eventually be a miniscule part of the long history of the world. With centuries and millenia to come, it will move on and rebuild anew. Consider the Deku Tree statements about the forests that may come after his Koroks plant the seeds of new Deku trees - his thinking far outstrips any human conception of time.
Maybe the flood didn't actually involve the water level of the world rising, but the altitude of Hyrule falling. That is, maybe Hyrule was, more accurately, sunk to the bottom of the sea. This would explain why certain locations (such as the Forest Haven and Windfall/Kakariko) seem to have been kept above the water (they weren't sunk with the rest of the land). It also would imply that Hyrule is a peninsula, island or continent of its own. As noted, it's possible that locations like Labrynna are actually neighbouring New Hyrule, or alternatively that they were formed at other times due to other changes in geography. Oh, and it may also provide a mechanism - a major tectonic shift causes most of Hyrule to collapse.
Fodo. Where did he come from? Kokiri can't breed (and are too innocent to if they could) apparently, so he isn't a descendant.
It's 'Fado'. Presumably, he also came from the Great Deku Tree, but didn't become a Korok because he was too busy being a sage.
His Japanese name is "Fodo". I use it to differentiate between him and the OOT character.
Why? You Potholed to The Wind Waker anyway, and it makes it confusing for people not familiar with the Japanese version.
They're two different characters.
And your point is...?
Or Are They? Alternately, perhaps there's a global Deku tree network (as indicated by the seedling sidequest in TWW) among which the Kokiri/Korok forest spirits circulate.
They are not blood related. I would assume that once a sage dies, the power of the sage moves on to someone else who is connected with their element. The sage power lays dormant until the person dies or it is awakened. It would explain why in each game the sages are completely different in race.
On the other hand, perhaps they do breed...but they only do it for the sake of preserving their race, and are otherwise oblivious to the perverted nature of such. A little creepy? Perhaps. But then again, chances are fairly high that most of them are Really 700 Years Old.
If the Deku Sprout and this game's Deku Tree are the same character, it's probably logical to assume that he created both Fado and Makar, making them something like very distant brothers. That is a blood relation and the sagehood could probably be passed through that. Although it's also implied that the sages were killed long before Wind Waker began, maybe even before the kingdom was flooded. If that's the case, it's possible that the last Deku Tree created Fado, but this would probably still make them close enough to be considered blood relatives of some kind. In any case, Fado calling Makar his descendant might have been just a weird choice of words on his part, if he's really that much older than Makar, he might have just figured that "descendant" and "several hundred years younger brother" are pretty much the same thing.
Maybe the Kokiri and Koroks both reproduce asexually, like trees that self-pollinate and drop seeds. Or, I always assumed that there were a few stages of reincarnation between the Kokiri and the Koroks, and Makar is Fado's distant reincarnation.
This might be nitpicky, but how is it that when you're fighting Jalhalla a single Poe can reform into the main body?
It must be that mask. The mask causes the growth and all that; the extra Poes are just there for backup.
You also notice that when all the Poes are destroyed, the mask is still alive.
So did Medli just get a raw deal with her scale or something? She has wings, so she's completed that ritual. But they're hidden most of the time and only work for gliding short distances or with strong winds, unlike other Rito who can just straight up fly, even long distances.
Presumably they're still growing in, and she simply needs training and time to grow before she can fly properly. Nobody ever said it was an entirely instant deal, just that the scale triggered the process
Prince Komali. He can fly rather decent distances and helps save the protagonists at one point of the game, carrying a person from Ganondorf's lair to the Tower of Gods. So I think the original poster still has a point, he got his wings well after Medli.
Medli hasn't used her wings much. Komali flies around all day. So it's safe to assume she doesn't have much developed wing strength.
Can someone please explain to me why the BIRD-girl is the sage of the EARTH temple and the little root PLANT thing is the sage of the AIR temple? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
I was just thinking about that this morning while replaying the Earth Temple, which, aside from the obvious thematic discrepancy, clearly displays the telltale markings shown in every single Forest Temple to date. You can't miss them; parts of the dungeon require shining light on them to reveal things. Forest Temple = Kokiri Forest = Forest Haven = Kokiri = Koroks = Makar. Medli = Rito = Zora = ...well, not Forest or Earth anything.
You could probably justify Makar's being the sage of the Wind Temple because his race is known to float on the wind with their leaves, and the Forest Haven is where Link receives the Deku Leaf, allowing him to fly on the wind as well. As for Medli, that one's a bit more of a stretch. It might be related to the fact that Dragoon Roost Island, the dungeon/area she's most featured in is home to a volcano, possibly the former Death Mountain, which could be sort of earth related.
This troper always assumed the game designers did that on purpose, as to make it less obvious who the sages were.
Seriously, how old is Tetra meant to be? I have no idea.
I'd say around 12.
I recall that glasses pirate saying something along the lines of, "looking at Tetra you wouldn't believe she's about 30 years old." I believe it was towards the beginning of the game.
That same pirate (Who's not the glasses one, but the one blocking her room) then says he's just kidding. She's probably 12, like the above person said.
If The world of wind waker is a flooded Ocarina of time How are there 49 Islands!? especialy towards the center where hyrule feild used to be, and if the ocean isn't really as deep as the underwater hyrule castle suggest then how in the world did the tower of the gods manage to stay underwater!?
Maybe lots and lots of sediment moved by currents built up into underwater mountains that poke above the sea level due to tidal deposits? Really quickly?
You may also be able to assume that when the gods flooded the kingdom, they made mountains for the civilians to try and escape to. If we're to assume the Deku Tree in this game is the Deku Sprout from OOT, the land it was planted in had to have been raised into a mountain, unless he was replanted or something.
How on Hyrule's flooded planet does a conductor's baton signify different notes? I understand the necessity of having magical music, and the idea of having Link "conduct" the wind is kind of neat and artistic, but conducting does not work that way at all, people.
The hero is probably pointing out what the wind will do. Like pointing up means "You'll go first group A", then he points to the left to say "then you'll go, Group B". Once they're all organized, the hero conducts them properly. Plus, dude, he does proper conducting during the prayers.
That explanation doesn't make any sense, and no, he actually does not. Conducting is about tempo, not about the tones of the notes. You can't conduct to the left and have that signify a C# and a right signify a Bb.
Maybe he's conducting for the gods or something. Remember when you play a song, Link conducts a second time after you input the notes, and music plays in the background. The music could very well be the gods controlling the wind, or whatever it is the song is for.
Maybe 'conducting' in the Zelda-verse means something different from what it means in our world. All it literally means is 'to direct in an action or course', 'to direct (as a leader)', or 'to serve as a channel or medium for a force'. Link does all three of these with the Baton: he directs the winds into new courses, he acts as the leader/director for the winds by commanding them what to do, and he acts as a medium for the forces of the gods of the wind by using the baton.
Related to the gripe about Tetra's skin color above, I'm confused about Medli's skin color. The rest of the Rito have dark/tan skin, yet she's pale as the moon. Is there any good reason for how pale she is in a race of dark-skinned bird-people, other than to signify that she's significant and important?
IIRC, Medli is the only female Rito ever shown. Perhaps Rito girls just have a lighter skin tone than the males? By this point, they are based on birds, which tend to have different color schemes in their feathers between the males and females.
So is there any particular reason the Master Sword didn't seal Link when he pulled it out like it did to Ocarina of Time's Link?
IIRC, Rauru, the sage of light, was the one who kept link in stasis in the sacred realm for seven years. He wasn't present to do that in Wind Waker. Even if he was, he probably saw that this era's Link was old enough to wield it and defeat Ganon without having to age him first.
If I had to guess, it's probably because it was weakened at the time he pulled it out. In the process of re-powering it, he proved that he was capable of handling it despite his youth. The fact that this incarnation of Link was The Unchosen One and had to literally fight for the right to wield both the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage (as opposed to simply receiving them Because Destiny Says So) may have had something to do with it as well.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. The Master Sword probably realized it wasn't getting anybody better anytime soon.
Given what happened the last time they vacuum sealed the hero for safekeeping, the sages (or whoever is responsible for that bit) probably made some tweaks to the system. Either that, or TWW Link is an incredibly small and young-looking sixteen-year-old.
The boys of Outset Island are given copies of the Hero of Time's clothes when they reach the age he was when fighting Ganon, so we can assume that either this Link is Older Than He Looks, or the Hero of Time was Younger Than He Looks - either way, both Links are around the same age and are mature enough to wield the Master Sword.
OOT Link is generally thought to be around 16 or 17 years old post-timeskip at which point he is referred to as Ďadultí Link, Twilight Princess Link is also placed at 16 or 17 and has an actual job and owns property so we can infer that Hyruleans probably come of age at 16 or 17 years old. WW Linkís actual age is never mentioned in-game but at least three other sources, also published by Nintendo, claim that heís 12 which obviously does not constitute an adult by Hyrulean standards. WW Link, however, is from a culture where boys come of age at 12 so even though heís young the fact that heís come of age could technically make him old enough to wield the Master Sword.
How long after Ocarina of Time is this supposed to take place? It seems like it has to have been quite a ways after, given how the Zoras and Kokiris have turned into the the Ritos and Koroks, and the intro states that "none remain" who remember what happened to Hyrule. If it was only 100 years like I've seen a lot of people guessing, it would be fairly likely that the characters we see in-game are at most great-grandchildren of the characters we see in Ocarina, so it seems weird that they'd have little accurate info on what had happened — I mean, Triumph Forks, really? But on the other hand, it can't have been too much longer afterwards either; Ganondorf seems to have gotten quite a bit of Character Development and become Older and Wiser, so I doubt it would seriously take him that long to come up with his plans in this game. Plus, since Tetra is Zelda and has the Triforce of Wisdom, that makes it seem fairly likely that Ocarina's Zelda couldn't have left too many descendants, as too many generations later would make Tetra having the Triforce of Wisdom a complete Contrived Coincidence.
Didn't I read somewhere that WW was set a hundred years after Oo T?
I've always said that it sort of depends on how old Ganondorf is during the events of Ocarina. Considering that Gerudo seem to be able to live for hundreds of years (Kotone and Kotake are 380 or 400, after all) meaning it could be set something like 300 years later.
This troper believes Twilight Princess was the game actually stated to take place roughly a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. The Wind Waker gives the impression it's been longer than a century - everything from the language to written history has been completely lost by the time the story starts. Ganondorf escaped by way of a breach in the seal over Hyrule, and considering that it was the goddesses themselves who originally entrapped him, it likely took awhile to weaken. Ganondorf is a Big Bad with plenty of time, after all - the Triforce of Power makes him effectively immortal by Word of God.
I'm aware that Orca and Sturgeon probably had what it took to defeat a Darknut, but how in the Hell did Lenzo get his hands on pictures of Laruto and Fado and the Great Fairy and the Fairy Queen and Jabun and the King of Hyrule and Ganondorf?
I don't know if he was the one who took those pictures. But, Lenzo was adventurous enough to get a picture of the Fairy Queen, who you not only needed to launch yourself in the sky with a tornado to see, but she didn't even appear to Link at first. And the King of Hyrule? Only three people have seen him. Three. Maybe it was an old pictograph that came before the gods decided to scrub all the floors in Hyrule.
Maybe in Ganondorf's case, Lenzo or some poor schmuck made it to the Forsaken Fortress and got a picture of Ganondorf before he was tossed out.
I'm pretty sure that somewhere Lenzo or someone around him mentions that there are times when a picture can be taken and an apparition appears. I thought that line was referring to these photos. He didn't take the pictures of the subject but rather the subjects appeared in the photos unexpectedly.
Who writes the descriptions for the figurines in the Nintendo Gallery? The most logical answer would be Carlov, but it seems odd that he would include the rumor that he sculpts figurines in his underwear, and he would have no way of knowing about the rarer enemies or major plot developments such as Tetra being Princess Zelda.
Given that the descriptions also mention the Octorock's perfect attendance record [no longer valid, as of Twilight Princess, I might add], I think it's fairly safe to say that the descriptions are purely out-of-universe, and in-universe the figures come with no more label than a name.
The HD version indeed alters the Octorok's description, taking out the "perfect attendance".
If you've agreed to go rescue Mila,talking to her father after making the agreement will sometimes lead to him asking if you want a reward for the rescuing. If you say yes he will reply that he needs to test you first and throw a red rupee into one of his china vases,then he'll tell you to go retrieve the rupee. This seems like a setup to a mini game or somesuch but nothing of the sort happens,meaning the only way to retrieve the rupee is to break the vases...which just makes him angry and causes you to be fined. Speaking to him again after he throws the rupee,reguardless of whether you broke the vases or not,only prompts him to say how worried he is about Mila. There is absolutely NO point to this "test" thing AT ALL,so WHY was it even in the game in the first place????
What prevented Ganondorf from getting King Daphnes out of the way when he appeared out of nowhere to ask the Goddesses to destroy Hyrule? He could have kicked him, slashed him, do anything to prevent the King from using the Triforce, but instead he just stands there.
The king had already touched the Triforce, so perhaps he was worried interrupting him would bring about divine retribution or cause the King to alter his wish to "and make Ganon explode." Or perhaps he was in shock, as his reaction to the flooding shows he wasn't exactly thinking straight anymore.
What does Tingle Tower do? What is the purpose of a alrge wooden tower with a top that rotates by two people pushing it?