main index




Topical Tropes

Other Categories

TV Tropes Org
Headscratchers: Final Fantasy IX
  • Of all creatures, why creating artificial Black Mages? Sure, they've got magic, but maybe they should have thought this better and made some warriors, lancers and — principally! — summoners to make a better balanced army. After all, they're basically humans whose hat shadows cover their faces, right?
    • It may not have been a choice. They had to work with mist, and created the minions by condensing it into a living being, something that works quite well producing a magical creature, but not so well with a soldier. A more balanced army would require recruitment, which would mean an elaborate deception regarding motives beyond what Kuja may have had the resources to do. Remember, he was just one man with a lotta magi-technology and the ear of some powerful people.
      • Good one. Maybe another kinds of magical creatures? There are white mages(though not practical, I know) and Blue Mages(or Qus, for that matter) that could be replicated. Actually, Blue Mages/Qus would be a good choice, with their destructive omnivorism.
      • Well they probably didn't have a choice on what fighting style would come out(plus the BMs are partially based off of Kuja who is by all means an offensive magician). Why would you suggest summoners, when plot wise only a specific group of people could summon AND are all dead? Plus then they'd have to create summons since no summon can have a pact with 2 summoners.
    • As for creating summoners, that goes counter to Garland's wishes. It was commanded to wipe out the Madain Sari villagers, creating summoners would defeat the purpose of having committed that genocide.
      • Let's not forget that summons can only be bound to one summoner at a time, meaning Kuja would would have to drain Eidolons (which he temporarily did to Dagger, but ended up using them himself) or go out and find them. Considering all the work Kuja had to go through, with causing the near end of the world and all, i doubt he had time to go out and find any summons (your party kinda stumbled on to them by luck anyway).
    • I always assumed that in FF 9, Black Mage faces really were just black balls with eyes. Remember, they're not human, but rather magical constructs derived from "a cauldron of souls", as Kuja put it. And hatched fully grown from eggs by machine.
      • Now I'd protest, I can quite remember at least a few times where Vivi is considered "just a boy" by passers-by, but then again my memory isn't the best. I, myself, also assumed that until I played Final Fantasy Tactics, where a common human Squire can become a Black Mage, complete with the spooky face(see also the FinalFantasy IJBM entry).
      • It's already been established that the worlds are different in each FF game. Comparing FFIX to any other FF game is like comparing the Star Wars universe and the Star trek one. You can't because they happen in different universes with different rules. Just because a human can change into a black mage in one game, doesn't mean it can happen in another.
      • While they do call him just a boy, there is a scene at one point where a black mage- I think it was one of the Waltzes- is killed, his hat comes off, and his head is still black. They may be calling him that because he's so short that they cannot see below the brim of his hat, and so simly assume that he's human under there.
      • I know this game very well, and there has never been a time when any Black Mage's hat came off, even in places that it should have, like the scene where the Cargo ship was hurtling towards South Gate on Disc 1. I think it's purposely ambiguous whether they have faces. You never see faces on a Black Mage, but comments from Eiko about Vivi's "long face" make you wonder if she sees a little boy's sad face. On the other hand, during Lindblum's attack scene, you see Black Mages are hurtling fireballs, the light from which never illuminate any of their faces.
      • To elaborate further, we actually DO see at least one hat come off (on the Cargo Ship—Vivi is staring at it at the beginning of the "Breaking Through South Gate" FMV), but we only see the hat, not the head of the mage who lost it.
      • I did always assume their faces (and probably whole bodies) are just incorporeal smokiness. My opinion on the passersby? Considering the Burmecians, Qus, Amarant's blue skin, and so on, they just figured it was a race they were unfamiliar with. After all, they didn't make too big a deal of Dagger's horn when she first showed up. "Long face" is just an expression, I think.
      • That's my thinking, too. To make an analogy, they're like FF-world Bombs: raw magic encased in a vaguely recognizable shape, given a very basic intelligence. They're made of Mist, so whatever magic they use is just said Mist bursting out of them. From my perspective, creating the effects of Blue or White magic would require some sort of higher intelligence, whereas a fireball or a bolt of lightning would be a more natural, direct form of output because they just bend effects that already exist in nature. Now, for whatever reason, some Black Mages were given greater (or even human-like) intelligence, or accidentally gained it on their own, giving them the ability to think for themselves and therefore cast more varied types of Black magic.
      • Actually, there are a couple of sequences where Vivi eats solid food (the banquest in Lindblum in Disk 1, and the dinner at Madain Sari in Disk 2) along with everyone else. And he also fell victim to the sleeping weed Dagger put in everyone's food. My theory is that black mages are in fact flesh and blood creatures with black skin and bright golden eyes, transformed from the raw biological material in the chocobo eggs into humanoid shapes. As for why the black mages gained intelligence, I think it was because they managed to shake off the brainwashing Brahne and Kuja imposed on them. You see the same thing happening to the Genomes in Disk 4 when Zidane and company bring them back to the Black Mage Village. Vivi even mentions the parallels between them on Terra, when he says that the minds of the Genomes are not hollow, just "out to lunch". He also feels that they're similar, chances are because they were both made into puppets by an outside force, whether it be the influence imposed on them by Brahne or the suppression of their minds by Garland and the Terrans. When they were freed from that influence, they all began developing their own personalities. It ties back into the whole notion of finding your own way in life and not blindly following someone else's commands, which is one of the game's major themes.
      • Fridge Brilliance: They have to gain intelligence. Intelligence is what powers Black Magic in the Final Fantasy multiverse.
    • Well, think: The machine was adapted from the process of creating Genomes, so they could obviously create something similar. On the other hand, they might just not have the same resources as they do on Terra, so they might have more limitations forcing them to go with black mages. It would be the logical thing to default to, seeing as they're not a real race. Black mages are entirely artificial creatures, even Vivi, which could make them easier to manufacture.
    • This was pretty much answered indirectly with the entire plot of Queen Brahne's schemes- magic power is incredibly destructive if harnessed, and it can be collectively harnessed, which is why she needed an entire army of Black Mages- you could destroy a city from afar with magic, but with anyone else you'd have to go in close. Kuja only really sold her the blueprints anyways, and it would be a lot easier to amass an entire obedient and magic-using army from a seemingly unlimited source (mist), than to try to recruit a bunch of people, who already have lives and are at odds with recent policy changes, and give them swords.
    • Why even bother making a balanced army? The Black Mages stampede through every major city in the world and kill every soldier there in a single offensive. Nobody ever stands a chance against them, plot-wise. There's never any indication given that having a more varied army would have helped Brahne at all.
    • Furthermore, Brahne had a balanced army. Her own soldiers were quite competent at regular fighting and were led by the legendary commander Beatrix, and her and machinations resulted in her getting a whole crapload of insanely powerful Eidolons. The Black Mages she bought from Kuja served as a moving artillery squad and power boosters for the Eidolons, whenever she felt like performing absolute overkill on the places that the Black Mages were curbstomping anyways.
      • And Kuja didn't need a balanced army, considering that he and his steed barely get scratched from direct hits from Bahamut (and thought that he needed a much more powerful one to stand a chance against Garland), he just manipulated the sapient ones into working for him because he was a dick. Which also explains why he basically used the an army of mystical superweapons like normal servants. The one time he needed non-magical assistance, he just forced the party to do it for him... and considering that they needed to beat up Ark, the prototype for the Invincible and the template for the ultimate Eidolon (available to players), in order to finish his task, most armies would not be up to the task.

  • Kuja wears a bloody thong. We see him from behind more than once. Where in the infinite hells does he hide his tail for most of the game?!
    • Well, I have a theory, but first I think I'll kill ya for making me think of it, and then get some bleach for my brain, okay? =D
      • Take your time. This ought to be good.
    • Are you aware of the practice of "tucking"?
    • He also wears a skirt. I swear.
    • I thought that he cut it off
      • You guys are gonna need a lot more brain bleach when you read this spoiler. When Kuja and Zidane trance their clothes disappear.
      • Not that it makes much difference.
      • So, let me get this straight. When Kuja trances, his clothes disappear and he grows a mane of red feathers all over? That's cool. And hot.
      • In Dissidia: Final Fantasy, that red thing near the torn half-skirt when he trances? Tail, looks like he tucks. May or may not be canon here. Thank you Museum. -Goes for brain bleach-
    • I always assumed that he had a secret pocket in the skirt thing, or else hid it with magic. Dissidia lends credit to the second theory, since his tail is nowhere in sight otherwise.
      • "PleasebeVanishpleasebeVanishpleasebeVanish..."
      • Must be, since there's no evidence of "tucking", either.
      • Depends on where he tucks it...
      • He wraps it around his waist like a Sayian, except he keeps it under his clothes.
      • What clothes? He's wearing a skintight man-kini down there. If he was wearing it like a belt, there'd be a ring-shaped bulge.
  • He coils it into a little snail spiral then sellotapes it to his arse.

  • What the fuck does Eiko's "Guardian Mog" ability actually do? "Protects with unseen forces" my arse.
    • Removes all statuses at the end of battle (Including Virus and Zombie, but I'm not sure about KO) before EXP is distributed. Meaning Virus doesn't affect her at all.

  • Why is it that Vivi only really learns about death from No.288? when he is seeded early on in the game, before he gets to the black mage village he asks Blank "will I die?" So why doesn't he he know what death is in the village. is it Plot Induced Amnesia?
    • He knows what it is for humans, but not for Black Mages. He's in too much denial to connect "stopping" that Black Mages do to the death that natural living things do.
    • Just because he's using the word doesn't mean he understands what it means. Ever dealt with a six-year-old child before? They've heard the word and very vaguely understand the concept, but there's no real grasp there. Vivi really comprehends death when he learns from No.288.

  • Why is Kuja, who's wearing what is quite possibly the least subtle and tasteful outfit in existence, wearing such subtle and tasteful makeup? Ignoring the Y chromosome, his use of eyeshadow is quite tastefully restrained, and his lipstick is so subtle as to make you need to look closely to see it.
    • The ancient world between worlds has extensive makeup artists, but no male outfitterists. Realizing that with such input, he would be remembered as a crossdresser after his death whatever happened, he rebelled and wore the least tasteful outfit between the worlds, to make a statement: Look at my crotch, peons, and despair. However, even in this vortex of angst, his training by the master makeup artists slipped through in his delicate, tasteful rouge and eyeliner.
      • This is all true.
    • Makeup&Pale skin is to Amano as Zippers&Belts are to Nomura.
      • Which is irrelevant since Amano had the same input into Kuja than into Cloud (i.e. none). I am always amused that just because IX revisits some of the mechanics and details of the 2D games, some people assume Amano designed it.
      • I'm not sure of the extent of his involvement, but he did contribute character designs for IX. His concept sketches were on the PSX game discs (at least for the PAL version)

  • Necron...just Necron
    • He's a giant god-like final boss. Whether or not it relates to the plot, it's mandatory for every Final Fantasy game.
    • He's my favourite last boss, mostly because of the music (Kefka would win, but his battle is tedious and too easy).
    • In the final battle with Kuja, the last thing he does is shatter the crystal that held the spirit of the End of the Wrold, aka Necron. Zidane and co. have to fight Necron to stop it from doing what it was created to do (i.e. end the worlds). So it's not really a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere at all.
    • Basically, Kuja was half-right when he said that destroying the crystal would undo creation. The act of destroying the crystal doesn't do it, but it does unleash Necron, who can undo creation.
    • My interpretation of Necron has pretty much always been that Kuja's Ultima attack actually kills the party (I mean, heck, it destroys an entire world, do you really think they'd survive that?) and Necron is Death, whom the party decides to fight in order to earn the right to not be dead yet. Mostly evidenced by Necron's final line that basically boils down to "okay, I'll let you guys go, just don't think you've destroyed me or anything."
    • I always thought it had been there all along, chilling atop the hill of despair. When he sees the lengths Kuja (a living being) is willing to go just to destroy itself and all of existance, he's inspired to accomplish that wish for him. When you win (how comes to mind) he accepts that people are capable of insane determination towards life as well, and backs off completely.
      • I don't even think that you won the last fight. Kuja teleports you away while you're still fighting Necron, which seems to show Necron that not even the guy who summoned him truly wanted destruction, so he blew up the battlefield and his corporeal(-ish?) form to wait for some other time to destroy the universe.

  • Are there eating utensils in the castle? Did Garnet Til Alexandros ever look at her bodyguard's weapon of choice? If so, how can she be confused upon seeing a knife? Her astonishment..well..astonishes this troper. It was really the exact scene when we are supposed to believe that Garnet has never heard of, let alone seen, any sort of blade that I ceased to even try and care about the plot of the game.
    • I take it you've never seen an actual dagger. The shape is significanly different. She knew it was a blade, but it was neither the knife she uses to eat with or the swords used by the royal guard.
      • This still requires her to have no deductive skills whatsoever. "This is a blade that has been used, constantly and repeatedly, as a weapon by Zidane. It seems to be a large knife." is normal. Adding "What is this strange device which I have never seen before?! It is absolutely unlike anything I've ever witnessed! I wouldn't be this astonished if I was shown a functional radio!" is not normal.
      • Here, let me check the game script posted on Gamefaqs...let's see, here's the line:
      Garnet:Zidane... What is this called?
      • Hey, what do you know? She's not staring in awe at a "strange device," and she clearly knows it's his weapon. She's just asking what this particular weapon is called, and considering many of the weapons do have actual names in the series (Save the Queen, for example), it's an entirely valid question.

        Yes, right after, Zidane starts going off on a schpiel detailing all the different types of blades, but that's just him being over eager talking to the girl he's got the hots for. It's manifestly not a result of Garnet not having any idea what a knife is.

        So, can we please cut this crap out?
      • Having watched that scene again... it really does look like she has no idea what she's looking at when she's holding it. Zidane tells her it's called a dagger and all blades of that length are called daggers, then she names herself Dagger. If she'd been asking for the name of the dagger, wouldn't she have asked that specifically, especially after Zidane started telling her the basics of what a dagger is? And if she deduced it had no name (nevermind that if she knows weapons have names, shouldn't she know those names are things like Save the Queen or Mage Masher and so on?), shouldn't she have looked elsewhere for one? It couldn't be that she was too polite to clarify the question, because she interrupts Zidane mid-sentence while he's explaining. Since a huge part of that scene is to emphasize how naive Garnet is about the real world, I really think the complaint is valid.
      • She was asking the name of the TYPE of weapon. Lets say she's seen a knife and she's seen a sword, she's a sheltered princess who probably doesn't know the nitty gritty of "oh this is a broadsword, this is a shamshir.." Imagine if someone asked the average american to name the different kinds of rapier! The scene always made sense to me and Garnet rebuffs Zidane's attempts to actually educate her about pointy things since at that point she was still a fish out of water and didn't think it was important, only wanting to know the name of this particular knife for inspiration's sake.
      • That doesn't make much sense. If she's educated enough to know that there are different types of knife, why doesn't she know what any of them are? Why does she ask "What is this called?" and not "What is this knife called?", or upon interrupting Zidane, saying, "No, I want to know what its name is." the way any normal person would? The way it's phrased, it's ambiguous. At that point in the journey (when she's naive and used to ignoring important things) it's more in-character for her to want to blow off Zidane's mansplaining because she's bored by it and is only interested in giving herself a cool new commoner name.
      • Oh for God's sake, this is just ridiculous semantics. She said, "What is this called?" because that's what she said. Are you really going to microanalyze every single freaking word she says just so you can gripe about it?
  • Okay, yeah, it's hot but, why does no one ever seem to notice Zidane has a prehensile tail? I mean, if it was never actually used, such as it does in Dissidia: Final Fantasy, I could pass it off as a quirky part of his costume as Play!Zidane that never managed to be taken off due to the Limited Wardrobe trope. Or perhaps he'd've been passed off as Half-Burmecian or something. (He was an orphan) But I know there are a few times that actually show it having use (Such as dancing around the support beams of the cargo ship to avoid Bert, dodging the roots of the Iifa tree...) so it kinda bothers a part of me, since Burmecians/Cleyrans have little-to-no-use for their tails. (Beyond my original statements about Zidane's)
    • He only uses it when he has to. Most likely the only people who saw him for any length of time that realized it was real were the members of Tantulus, who knew he didn't know as they were his family. Everyone else assumed it was fake, and if they saw otherwise, were completely baffled by it (then forgot, as they see wierder stuff appear on the world map as random encounters).
      • Hm... good points. I'll try to keep it in mind, although I think there was a Hand Wave or five about the weird monsters in the world map (i.e. Something about being condensed mist.) And so the last sentence is mildly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    • Considering that the world of FF9 is filled with all sorts of weird demihuman like things, I always figured that it wouldn't stand out. I mean Baku has rabbit ears, for god sakes.
      • Yeah, in a world where nobody bats an eye at rat people, the Qu, four armed guys like Alleyway Jack, and whatever the heck Amarant was, is an otherwise-normal guy with a tail really going to seem that strange? The world of FFIX is a weird place.
      • The only time it's really pointed out is when Steiner calls Zidane a "monkey".
      • Of course, Zidane is usually jumping around the scenery while Steiner taunts him with that, but there is a scene on the cargo ship where Zidane vaults away from the steering wheel and hangs from the ceiling by his tail.
      • Freya refers to him as "monkey tail" when you first meet her. He responds "you've got a tail too, Rat Face". Clearly humanoids with tails isn't odd in this universe.
      • Not to mention Blank, who looks to be a Frankensteinian creation... perhaps to mirror what Vivi has to come to grips with? Most of the Tantalus troupe seem to end up as friends with Vivi, just as they would give their lives to rescue Blank...?
      • I always took Baku to be a bat without wings... I mean, just look at his nose!
      • I'm pretty sure he's a tapir. Given his name and all.

  • Just what the hell is the deal with Zorn and Thorn? Are they Brahne's servants? A monster? Both? What reason do they have to follow Kuja's orders?
    • They're clearly shown to be monsters by Kuja, so they don't need a motivation. They're not really possessing of free wills or independent motivations.
      • Actually, that's not really true. According to the Ultimania, they were born 80 or so years before the game started. While their motivations and origins are fuzzy, they couldn't have had anything to do with Kuja until his personal involvement in Alexandria.
      • Given what happens to them, though, either they're mist-monsters (in which case they're just as much products of the Terran invasion as Kuja and Zindane), or they're the poster child for "bad things happen to those that stay too long in the mist", in which case they are victims of the Terran invasion. Either way, its the fault of the Ilfa tree, and, thus, ultimately Garland's fault.
      • That's not a bad theory, but it's speculation! Considering how a lot of weird arcane stuff in FF9 is just part of the setting and never explained, there's no telling WHERE Zorn and Thorn most definitely came from.
      • Stay too long in the Mist? Is this a Guide Dang It I've missed?
      • No, its mentioned by Steiner in dialogue near the beginning of the game, when they first enter the mist after escaping the Forest.
      • Seriously, right around they time they turned into a two-headed monster and were just revealed to be two halves of the same thing, I kinda assumed I was supposed to take that about as seriously as, say, Ultros.
    • Maybe they're eidolons (or one eidolon?) and Kuja has their summon jewel? Although if that was the case Eiko or Garnet would probably have been able to tell

  • Why did Kuja freak out so epically after learning of his own mortality? He's quite possibly the single most powerful magic-user in both worlds (hell, he was able to destroy an entire planet singlehandedly), so why didn't he just use his newfound powers to halt his own aging? Garland himself was several thousand years old, so this is clearly possible.
    • It's not aging that's the problem. Garland specifically made him with a limited 'shelf life', meaning that Kuja will presumably just 'stop' just like all the Black Mages and die. No amount of magic can prevent what was 'programmed' into you. And while Kuja is a magic user, that doesn't mean he has the knowledge to genetically tinker with himself to fix the limited life-span; after all, he made the Black Mages, and they had an even shorter lifespan than him. Only Garland has the power to fix him, and even then, it might not be possible after you're already created.
      • It's specifically stated that Kuja's creation was a fluke—he was supposed to be an ordinary Genome, but a soul somehow got into him and Garland decided to make use of him. That was the whole reason for Zidane's creation—since Kuja was working out so well, how much more effective would an Angel of Death specifically designed for the purpose be? Garland couldn't possibly have programmed a limited life-span into a being that he never planned on making in the first place. And don't even try to tell me that the limited life-span is inherent to all Genomes—they're supposed to be vessels for the souls of Terra, and Garland has a vested interest in making them as physically perfect as possible.
      • Maybe Garland added it in during a regular medical exam of some after designing Zidane? Or programmed it into the prototype Genome in case something goes wrong, like it did. The line about Garland only intending for Kuja to live until Zidane came into his real power suggests Garland adding it in after the fact, though.
      • The impression I got was that Kuja was under the impression that he was as immortal as Garland, and the idea that he'd die of old age just like anyone else completely blindsided him. Garland doesn't say that Kuja has a deliberately limited lifespan—just that he's mortal, and will one day die, and thus cannot build an eternal kingdom. Given what Garland says about Kuja being "flawed" and an "imperfect vessel" while Zidane was created as his replacement, plus the whole business with the Black Mages, I can sort of see how one might think that this means Garland deliberately limited Kuja's lifespan. Looking at what's actually spelled out in the dialogue, however, it seems that Kuja was created by accident as a self-willed, unusually powerful, but still mortal Genome that Garland made use of. Garland then deliberately made Zidane, either to replace Kuja when he died of old age or as a genuinely superior model (perhaps Zidane won't age?). Nowhere in this do we see evidence that Kuja is going to die of anything other than old age. The question thus remains—given that he had surpassed his (evidently immortal) creator and was quite possibly the most powerful being in two worlds, with access to highly advanced technology on top of that, why didn't he simply make himself immortal? Even if he didn't know how to do it at that moment, he had an entire lifetime ahead of him to research the issue.
      • You answered your own question: The idea that he wasn't immortal blindsided him so much that he assumed his lifespan was sharply limited like the Black Mages. Think about it this day, he honestly believes he's going to live forever. Forever. That's thousands of years, at the least. Then, he's hit with the revelation that he's mortal, which means he's got a limited lifespan. Maybe it's not as limited as that of the Black Mages, but from his perspective, even living another 50 years is nothing compared to immortality. So instead of taking the perspective of "Okay, I've got 50 years to figure this shit out," he's thinking, "Christ, I've only got a few years? BULLSHIT!" And while Garland didn't say he had a strictly limited lifespan, he didn't exactly go out of his way to imply that Kuja would live to a ripe old age. So Kuja jumped to the conclusion that he was like the Black Mages, with very little time left, and he freaked right the hell out. From that point on, he simply wasn't thinking rationally, he was just lashing out at, well, everything.
    • First, Garland was an android, so that really doens't apply to the whole extending your lifespan thing. Also, Kuja was stated to only live long enough to perform his duties until Zidane grew to maturity. That means a handful of years at MOST.
      Garland: "I built you to last only until the worthy Genome, Zidane, grew. It was too dangerous to let you last any longer than that."
      Kuja: "What are you saying...?"
      Garland: "There's a limit to your life... You'll be dead soon... Even as I die, you'll have died without ever leaving your mark on the world..."

  • What's with those feathers on Kuja's head? Did he just tinker with his appearance, or what?
    • He likes to look pretty.
      • That still doesn't answer the question of how.
      • It's just a headdress, not a part of his body. There's probably some sort of hairband holding it together, buried under all that hair.

  • Since it's a world of Lions and Tigers and Humans... Oh, My!, would Kuja's insulting nickname fore Queen Brahne, "Elephant Lady" be considered a racial slur?
    • Why would it be? I don't remember seeing any elephants in the game... perhaps it's a case of translation ambiguity?
      • Or Fourth Wall breaking, cause it seems to be a reference to The Elephant Man, which is unlikely to present in the FFIX universe.
    • Or they have actual elephants, just not shown (I think that there are cats, not 100% sure), and he called her fat. I think that was the original idea.
    • Though considering his use of "rats" and "vermin" to describe Burmecians and Cleyrans, and his calling Vivi and the other Black Mages "puppets" and "toys," he's not really averse to specist remarks. I guess it comes from being a narcissist.
  • For that matter, only one party member is an anthro, and only one anthro race has any role to speak of. Amarant's hair could mean he's an anthro poultry of some sort, and Queen Brahne could actually be an elephant - but the series usually includes Werewolves, and there are no canine characters to speak of. Also, the party consists of A (humanoid) Genome, A Black Mage, two (humanoid) summoners, an anthro rat, a Qu, A possible human, and one human, which to me seems like a pretty weak effort to have non-humans in the party.

  • How was Garland thwarted when he first tried to wipe out the Gaians with magic? I know it's an FF1 reference, but that's not good enough by itself-it should make some sort of context in the plot. I have my own theories, but I'll see what other tropers think first.
    • Well, considering it's implied that the first thing he had done this time around is wipe out the Summoners, they probably had something to do with it.
      • My own personal theory is that, 500 years ago, Garland tried to wipe Gaia out with magic, but the Gaians summoned Alexander to stop him. At the start of Disk 3, Dr. Tot wonders exactly why the jewel to summon Alexander was broken into four pieces, and why the people of Madain Sari left for the Outer Continent to do so. And then there are the mysterious writings on the Eidolon Wall in Madain Sari, and the fact that the Iifa Tree is sealed with an eidolon, none of which is really explained. The "arrogant one" mentioned in the writings is probably Garland, who tried to destroy the Gaians, and the people who had to "leave their homelands" were the people of the Mist Continent who traveled to the Outer Continent. There, they began studying the nature of summoning and communing with nature (sort of like Cosmo Canyon in Final Fantasy VII), and realized what the Iifa Tree was doing to Gaia. Their efforts ended in failure (the Eidolon Wall notes that "we repeated the mistake our ancestors made 500 years ago), but they kept trying to stop Garland's machinations. Garland, no longer willing to tolerate their efforts, nuked the village with the Invincible. All the evidence is there, really, it's just never actually connected or explained in detail.
      • He tried to assimilate Terra too quickly. Terra was dying and so he tried to assimilate it immediately. However for whatever reasons - most likely the Summoners - he wasn't able to. This left odd things like Oeilvert and the Desert Palace stuck on Gaia from the failed assimilation. That's why the Terrans created the Genomes and decided to sleep, so that Terra could assimilate Gaia slowly via the souls from the Iifa Tree.

  • Did anyone else ever want to learn more about Terra and its culture? We get some hints, but not much else apart from that. Again, I have my own theories, but I'll see what other tropers have to say first.
    • I always figured Terra as used to being something similar to Midgar of FF7, just planetwide. Maybe a bit more magic/bright-colored oriented but basically the same. Which of course explains in the first place why Terra died in the first place.
    • There's fic for that.

  • It's stated at several points that the Mist Continent is the only one that's explored. And yet, later on, it's clear that people have had no problems finding or travelling to Daguerro and Esto Gaza. What gives?
    • Europe was the only continent on our planet "explored" until very recently.
      • You misunderstand. Daguerro and Esto Gaza have a number of people from the Mist Continent. Alleyway Jack travels between Daguerro, Treno and Alexandria over the course of the game, and Zidane meets Oracle Kildea at Daguerro. At least one of the people at Esto Gaza says he's from Lindblum. How did all these people get there, and how were these colonies established, if the Lost and Forgotten Continents weren't explored?
      • One of them is on a tiny, tiny island in the middle of nowhere; kinda hard to explore nearby continents from there. The other is in the arctic, again, a pretty piss-poor station for basing explorations out of (we didn't fully explore Siberia until a century or two ago, I think), and probably inhabited mostly by cultists, miners, and maybe whale hunters. One is the equivalent of Greenland before Columbus, and the other is like one of the bases in Antarctica- useful for its locality, but any expedition out from it takes too many resources to map much.
      • Siberia was fully explored in the Stalinist 1930s, to be precise. Uncle Joe wanted to know precisely where to build his gulags.
      • Once again, let me repeat myself: Esto Gaza and Daguerro are settled by people from the Mist Continent. Daguerro's island is pretty damn big compared to most of the rest of the Salvage Archipelago, and it seems to be fairly well-populated. Esto Gaza, on the other hand, is apparently a regular stopoff point for pilgrims. People don't use them as bases for exploration, they were founded by exploration. And yet it's repeated at several points that the world beyond the Mist Continent is supposed to be unexplored. So how do people from the Mist Continent travel to Daguerro and Esto Gaza?
      • Been a while since I played the game so I don't remember if the rest of those continents were settled as well, but just because two cities were settled doesn't mean the whole place is "explored". For the most part, people considered most of North America "unexplored" even after the 13 colonies were well established.
      • Also, remember that Esto Gaza is very close to the shore. It's probably as far into the Lost Continent as the dared to go, since it's unexplored.
      • When given the World Map, it's a Lindblum relic and belonged to one of the older Cids in the line. Not to mention the various "Roo" tunnels that connect different continents together are still known about to at least some poeple. It's clear that the other continents were explored by Mist Continent inhabitants at some point, and they are still aware of their existence. At some point in their development, they abandoned the other continents and gradually lost their knowledge of them.
      • The Lost Continent is called "Lost" for a reason. Besides that it's a frozen wasteland that makes it impossible to inhabit. Obviously people know about it, since Esto Gaza is a tourist attraction to see the Shimmering Islands. It's probably the same way the Arctic used to be, when atlases were coming into being. As for the other continents, the Mist Continent is the only one that's inhabitable. It's the equivalent of a cool temperate oceanic climate. When you explore it, there's a majority of green grassy areas with one desert in the north. Easy to populate. The Outer Continent is mostly hot and arid with only a handful of forests and marshes. That's the one that has the most settlement outside the Mist Continent but a lot of it was wiped out when the Summoner tribe was destroyed. It's still recovering from that disaster. Maybe there were other settlements that got wiped out in the Invincible's wake too? The Forgotten Continent is mostly barren desert and very mountainous. Not very easy to populate. What was said about the Lost Continent also counts.

  • This is something that keeps me from taking things like the Ultimanias seriously a lot of the time. If Zorn and Thorn are 80 years old, how the hell are they able to jump, tumble and run around the way they do? By all rights, they should be in rocking chairs gumming their food at the Old Clowns' Home. My grandparents are in their 80s, and one of them has given up driving for good while the other needs a scooter to get around. So how can Zorn and Thorn be so spry when they're both old enough to be Queen Brahne's father?
    • Because they're magical beings and not normal humans.
    • This Troper's 80-year-old grandfather goes skiing black diamond slopes 100 days of the year. It's possible that they too could be hale old guys.
    • Also, we don't quite know what, exactly, they are, or how long their typical lifespans would be. 80 years to them could proportionally be like 20 or 30 to a human.
    • Even before their merging and the weird monster they ended up turning into when you finally killed them, this troper could tell from jump street that those two weren't quite human.

  • Could someone tell me how the whole Memoria/Crystal World thing worked. What was memoria? Did Kuja create it? is it inside the planet? In another dimension? The crystal is apparently the source of all life, when did Kuja learn this? How did he get in? bust a hole in the universe? Is this all connected to the Iifa tree? god my head hurts.
    • I believe they said that Memoria was composed of the collective memories of all creation and reacts to the memories of the people who enter it. The game implies that it existed outside of Kuja's influence and was both apart from the universe and an integral part of it. Kuja probably learned about it from his time on Terra.

  • What is with Eiko's "pants"? They bother me more than anything else in this game.
    • Maybe they're some kind of waders she wears over her pink pants? I guess she could use it to get shrimps or something in the shallows of the river running through Madain Sari, and she wears it all the time because they're more durable than the rest of her clothes and none of the Moogles are good at sewing...
    • Do not attempt to make sense of JRPG clothing. Seriously. Your head might explode.

  • If the Evil Forest was petrified as a result of our heroes destroying its hive mind, thus affecting the plant-derived spider-creatures along with the vines - why is Blank affected?
    • Evil Forest. It was trying to kill its killers, as evidenced by the fact that it was actively chasing them down even after getting mortally wounded.
      • So the Evil Forest suddenly had the ability to petrify its intruders as a sort of desperation attack after its hive mind was destroyed... or it always had that ability but nothing big enough to provoke a response came along.
      • I always took it as a side-effect of the forest dying. The "hive mind" was it's heart, more or less, and killing it killed the forest as a whole, which resulted in the super-petrification.
      • I always saw it as the forest releasing petrification spores after the hive mind was killed, the parts furthers from the heart were able to survive slightly longer and tried to stop them as the rest of the forest released spores upon it's deaths, petrifying anything caught in it's wake.

  • The chocobo-wrangler Moogle slaps an 8-item limit on your treasure-digging game because "I'll go out of business"... makes one wonder how many runaway chocobos he's been fielding up till then. What, do they each dig up a different set of Chocographs and unlock unknown colors like cheetah-prints or rainbow-colored Chocobos with the ability to run, like ten seconds backward and forward in time or scale only cliffs facing south or something?
    • ... He makes it clear Choco's been the only one. Because you're the only visitor he's had in ages that can ride Choco, he's taking the opportunity to set up his own rules regarding business.

  • In the first performance of 'I Want to be your Canary', who was going to play the role of Prince Schneider if Steiner never interfered? There's nobody left in Tantalus and Ruby obviously had the role of Princess Cornelia before Garnet jacked it...
    • It's not unheard of for actors to pull double-duty in a performance. Ruby could've played both. Or one of the other Tantalus members could've crossdressed (also not unheard of).
      • I was talking about Baku declaring Steiner as 'Prince Schneider' when he came out of the trapdoor. There's no other female roles in the story. Of course 'Prince Schneider' might have been an offscreen character the whole time, much like Romeo's first crush Rosaline in the original Romeo and Juliet.
      • My mistake, I misread that as "Princess Schneider" at first. It's been about a decade since I played the game.
      • Presumably, Prince Schneider is an offstage character normally, but Baku needed a reason for Steiner to be up there with out breaking character, so he blagged that he was Prince Schneider. Though, come to think of it, the names "Schneider" and "Steiner" are suspiciously similar. Hmmm...

  • Exactly why did Gaia's assimilation by Terra not work out? I know the Ultimania says something like Garland being forced to merge with Gaia because he couldn't find a more suitable planet, but that seems to be directly contradicted by the scene in Memoria when Zidane, Steiner and Amarant see Gaia's birth. Gaia is a ball of flaming rock and magma, and Garland describes this as "Gaia's Birth". What made the newly born Gaia different from any other newly born planet? This is why I usually have trouble taking the Ultimanias seriously-sometimes they seem to directly contradict what we see in the game.
    • Because it was inhabited and civilisation was thriving? Because the population knew magic? Maybe Garland wanted a planet that was uninhabited or else one where the population would be easy to dispose of. He couldn't find one so he had to use Gaia, because the Terra people were dying. As said above, he tried to assimilate Terra too quickly. Places like Oeilvert and the Desert Palace are remnants of that failed attempt. So the Terra people decided to sleep and the Genomes were created to be vessels for them. Gaia's structure was badly damaged in the failed assimilation so the Iifa Tree was put there to stabilise the surface - and block souls from returning to the crystal, only allowing Terran souls to do so. He later introduced a filtering device to replace the rejected Gaian souls with Terran ones. This was in the hope that Terra's people would one day be revived.
      • Except that the game quite clearly shows that Gaia was not inhabited with a thriving civilization at the start of the game. We see quite clearly that Gaia was uninhabited when Garland first tried to assimilate it. As I point out in the opening paragraph, Gaia was at first a flaming ball of rock and magma, and then it was covered entirely with water. Gaia was just being born at the time that Garland tried to fuse Terra with it, just like all the other planets Terra had previously assimilated. There is nothing to suggest that it wasn't like all the other planets Terra sublimated-the Ultimania doesn't seem to explain the difference betweeen "new" planets and "young" ones, and the game doesn't even touch on that.
      • Related to above, here's another question-why weren't Oeilvert, Ipsen's Castle and the Desert Palace not wiped out by the magma and water if they appeared on Gaia's surface due to the semi-failed fusion?

  • Another example of the Ultimania being directly contradicted by the game seems to be the arrival of the Ark. The Ultimania says that Terra's crystal was too weak to create eidolons, and yet we see that Ark is quite clearly an eidolon, and one that's associated with Terra. We first see it guarding the Gulug Stone in Terra, and it gives you a Pumice Piece when you beat it. When you combine it into the Pumice at the end of the game and summon it, we see that the Ark is a giant shapeshifting robot from Terra's red moon that brings massive death and destruction on anything it targets. It's obviously based on Terran myth-exactly what Gaian civilization would come up with something like that? So what gives with the Ark? I actually think this is the eidolon sighted near Esto Gaza that migrated to Oeilvert afterwards-there's no indication that the moles living in Mount Gulug had any inkling of how to use eidolons.
    • I direct you to this Plot Analysis on GameFAQs. It includes theories on various things, and refutes your statement that the Moles had no idea how to use Eidolons.
      • I've read that, and the guy theorizes that the place was just recently sealed and Kuja was planning to go there to steal an Eidolon from the Moles. Somehow I doubt that, when you consider that Hilda's apparently been there all that time in a fancy bedroom. It seems faintly absurd that Kuja would drag her along with him and set her up in those fancy digs all as part of his Eidolon ritual. Rather, I think that place was established by Kuja as a backup hideout, and he kept Hilda there. I don't even think the "Gulug Stone" was needed to get into Mount Gulug-from the description in the Key Items section, it's referred to as a "magic-controlling device whose technology is out of this world." I see it as a device with which Kuja hijacked the Invincible in Terra, whereas in Alexandria Garland was the one who hijacked it from him. Garland hid it Oeilvert with the antimagic field and the Ark to guard it. As to why it's called the "Gulug" Stone...well, the writers really could have put more thought into fixing some of these plot holes!
      • Then explain the Eidolon extracting circle in the bottom of the cavern. You're not going to tell me that Kuja set that up in advance, are you? Sorry, but that seems kind of far-fetched. Also, if you go to Esto Gaza prior to going to the Desert Palace, Mount Gulug is sealed, with no way in, with the same symbol as the Gulug Stone. You then see the same symbol throughout Terra. Once is an anomaly, twice is coincidence, thrice is a pattern. The triangle within a triangle is an important symbol of Terra. Why would Terra's symbol be on a door leading to the ruins of a Gaian civilization? I admit that Hilda is a bit of a plot hole, but Kuja seemed to think her a guest of his, rather than a prisoner. Perhaps, when he lost the Desert Palace, he magically stored her room somewhere, and then put it back into reality in Mount Gulug? You have to admit, he has the power to do that.
      • No problem. I think Kuja did in fact set up that eidolon-extracting circle at the bottom of the cavern, since he probably already set one up in the basement of Alexandria Castle. That first circle was used to extract Dagger's eidolons. The guy who wrote the FAQ said either that Kuja set it up or some part of a Terran building somehow appeared in the castle basement, something I find too ridiculous to even contemplate. It should also be remembered that, right before she summoned Odin to destroy Cleyra, Brahne mentions that now she's going to see if what Kuja said is true. That implies that Kuja is the one who first suggested using the eidolons to Brahne. It's worth remembering that Kuja is a master of Xanatos Speed Chess whenever some Spanner in the Works ruins his plots. He originally planned to use one of Dagger's eidolons to eventually enslave Alexander and use it to destroy Garland, but that fell apart when Garland hijacked the Invincible and destroyed Alexander instead. As a backup plan he lured Zidane to the Desert Palace to try and kidnap Eiko and use one of her eidolons using his backup hideout at Mount Gulug, but then Mog/Madeen ruined that part. Finally, he got the idea to let Zidane and company reopen the way to Terra, while he hijacked the Invincible with the Gulug Stone and absorbed the power of the souls trapped within it to reach a Trance form. His first two plans might have failed due to outside interference, but the third time was the charm...Oh, and as for why a Terran symbol is on the door to a Gaian civilization, I think Kuja himself set it up to keep any nosy adventurers or pilgrims from finding their way in. It's not the first time he's used Terran technology on Gaia, given that he manufactured the black mages based on the Terran process to develop the Genomes. When you're on the Cargo Ship, Zidane even muses about how unusual the technology in the lab of the Dali black mage factory was.
      • You're misinterpreting some things. For example, Kuja wasn't trying to use one of Dagger's eidolons to destroy Alexander. In fact, there's nothing to suggest he knew Alexander would be summoned. He planned to use the Invincible to enslave Alexander as it had enslaved Bahamut (whom BRAHNE had summoned at the time of its enslavement). Also, he acquired the Gulug Stone LONG before he got the idea to hijack the Invincible back from Garland, and use Brahne's soul to achieve Super Trance. Honestly, it's not hard to figure out WHY he got the Gulug stone. It was to open the way to Mount Gulug, nothing more. Kuja was more than capable of hijacking the Invincible while Garland was distracted by Zidane. As for the Black Mages, I don't deny that Kuja created the designs for them. Cid says in Disc 2 Lindblum that he supplied Brahne with weapons, including the Black Mages.
      • Sorry I'm so late in replying to this. I know that Kuja wasn't going to use Bahamut to destroy Alexander-he wanted to use Bahamut to force Alexander to appear, so he could enslave it with the Invincible. Kuja even expresses his pleasure at Alexander's strength and power, and talks about summoning a "magic carriage"-in other words, the Invincible-for it. That was half the reason Kuja attacked Alexandria, to force Alexander to be summoned. As for the Gulug Stone, its description in the Key Items section refers to it as a "magic-controlling device", but doesn't really say anything about it being a key. Since Garland overrode Kuja's control of the Invincible, it stands to reason that Kuja needed the Gulug Stone to prevent Garland from overriding him. Garland hid the Gulug Stone in Oeilvert where it would be almost impossible to retrieve (what with magic being useless and the powerful Ark eidolon there to guard it). Kuja needed to hijack the Invincible back from Garland from the very beginning, since he still would have needed it to control the eidolons that he was planning to use to murder Garland anyway.

  • Here's a minor issue. Most of the eidolons have reasonable attack names. Ifrit has Flames of Hell (lengthened from the traditional 'Hellfire', but still makes sense), Shiva has Diamond Dust, Ramuh has Judgement Bolt. These three are veteran FF summons. Then there are the two 'ultimate' summons: Ark and Madeen. Ark is the shadow-elemental eidolon, and its attack name is Eternal Darkness. Here's the problem: He blows the enemy up in a blinding explosion of light and energy. How is THAT shadow-elemental? Madeen, the holy-elemental eidolon, has the opposite problem. She traps the enemy in a web of holy energy, then implodes it on them. But the attack's name is Terra Homing. The original name for it was Terraforming (possibly a reference to how the ground shifts in the full-length summon animation), but still! What does that name have to do with the holy element? Can someone explain either of these to me?
    • For Ark, lasers mean shadow element to Square for some reason (see Chrono Trigger).

  • What ever happened to the Mist? It travelled from Terra to Gaia and the game says nothing about it after the Iifa tree went berserk.
    • First off, the Mist never came from Terra. Mist is a by-product of the Iifa Tree's process of taking in and containing the souls of the people of Gaia. The Iifa Tree spread the Mist through its roots (which reached all across the world), and it began pumping the Mist full-force when Kuja returned from Terra, enveloping the world in Mist. As for what happened to it, well, I personally believe that the Iifa Tree was in its death throes when it went after Zidane. In other words, its dead now, so the Mist would disappate again.

  • Cid Fabool IX's name is supposed to be a Mythology Gag, as he is literally the 9th Cid. But look at this - if the original Cid is Cid I, Cid Haze is Cid II, Cid Pollendina is Cid III, Cid Previa is Cid IV, Cid Del Norte Marquez is Cid V, Cid Highwind is Cid VI and Cid Kramer is Cid VII, this guy should be named Cid Fabool VIII. Cid of the Lufaine wasn't mentioned until the GBA version.
    • I think they did it more for the reference than for being factual.
    • Actually, there were eight other Cids at the time of IX's release. Don't forget Cidolfus Orlandu, or 'Thundergod Cid' from Final Fantasy Tactics.

  • I have a question how come everyone overlooks Garnet's actions on Disk 1 and 2, I mean Rinora and Quistis from FFVIII get alot of bashing for there actions even though it only took up a few minutes and didn't cause any negative effects on the plot, but Garnet's took up a few hours and causes alot of damage. In fact she dosn't even get called out on it in the game after zidane rescues her, it just annoys me.
    • Its all about scope and position. I can't speak to Quistis, but Rinoa is criticized for her plan being to, with little experience, little resources, and no connections, take out an evil empire and liberate a nation via a single assassination attempt, with every reason to know about the enemy's massive resource and manpower advantage. Garnet's, by contrast, was very reasonable and would have worked had Brahne not been mad and a factor Garnet had no way of accounting for, her summons, been involved; Garnet's plan was, simply, 1. Contact foreign head of state I have connections to, inform him that my mother is defying the alliance between our nations and acting unreasonably vicious, try to obtain military aid as your nation has historically and recently had a military and technology advantage over ours and I wish to speak from a position of power, and 2. Return home with military aid, use it to negotiate from a point of strength and convince Mother to change policy or step down peacefully. Garnet knew exactly what she was doing and did absolutely nothing that was not well within the reasonable means of an heir to the throne planning a coup-or-policy-shift-by-force via taking advantage of an allied nation; she only failed because she didn't know that the summons, black mages, and Kuja making Lindblumian backup insufficient to speak from a position of strength, or that her mother had come to see her as a road to power to be discarded rather than a beloved heir. Rinoa acted immaturely and irrationally given her known factors (trying to accomplish what was known to be reasonably speaking, beyond her means), Garnet acted maturely and rationally (well within her means as far as she could have known), but failed and went into an emotional BSOD due to factors she could not have known.
      • Wouldn't the wiser thing would be to find out what is causing her mother to act like this? I mean she could have just gone to Burmecia, reasoned with the soldiers, and talked to her mother there. Also, she was acting immature; she ignored Cid's warnings, abandoned Zidane, and received some hints about what her mother was planning with the Black Mage factory and the Black Waltzes. I'm sorry it just dosen't justify her actions.
      • When it's someone you love very much, you're willing to turn a blind eye to most things in order to maintain your ideal image of them You say her actions aren't justified? Brahne was the one who raised her. For all intents and practical purposes, Brahne was Garnet's mother in all but blood. Garnet didn't want to lose the image of a kind, loving mother. Even when faced with all the facts, even when it was crystal-clear, she didn't want to lose the only mother she had. That's why she sought alternative explanations. And, in the end, she was proven right; Kuja had been manipulating Brahne all along. Granted, it was too late to save Brahne by that point, but still.
      • But the reason she ran away from home is because she knew her mother was going crazy. Plus why didn't she try to talk to her mother BEFORE she ran away from home, and she to ignore the fact that she's playing right into her mother hands by going BACK, she seems to completely forget about the black waltzes, and besides I always thought she ran away from home to find out what was causing her mother to act like this which I don't think returning home would help. Her actions are unrealistic.
      • Garnet left Alexandria because her mother was 'different', and had been since the king died. Her words. Garnet's naivety shows when she underestimated how power hungry Brahne became, a mistake shown later by Regent Cid. And it's implied that she tried talking to her mother before she left, but Brahne blew her off. So Garnet decided to leave and get help from Lindblum. As for the Black Waltzes, remember: they were programmed to retrieve her ALIVE. Meaning that Garnet had no reason to suspect that Brahne was truly insane; she just thought Brahne wanted her back home, and was being a bit over-zealous about it. Hell, it's reflected in the fight against #2: if Steiner, Zidane, and Vivi are all KO'd, it will use Sleep on Garnet, resulting in a Non-Standard Game Over.
      • Then why would she return home to talk to her mother if it didn't work the first time. Also I pretty sure Garnet knew her mother was going nuts and got some pretty big hints too, like her mother firing on the airship when they were trying to escape Alexandria, almost killing her. Also about the black waltzes, wouldn't Garnet have found it a bit odd that her mother would send these murderess assassins after her instead of the Alexandrian soldiers, especially Beatrix, also what about Black Waltz no. 3 slaughtering of the black mages on the airship, the fact that her mother would sent creatures that would be willing to do that is clearly telling Garnet that something is going on. Garnet makes the intire beginning of the game completely pointless.
      • Garnet knew something was wrong with her mother, she just didn't know what or how much she had changed. She's clearly distressed by her mother's actions in each of those instances you mention but she's too naive and innocent to understand what they all indicate. Up until the death of her father her mother had been a kind and loving parent and it takes a lot for that image to be removed from a child's mind. She wanted to talk to Cid and see if he could do anything as their families had been close, and when things were shown to be worse than she'd thought she goes home to attempt to make a direct appeal to her mother. A foolish move, but one made by a loving daughter believing herself to eb dealing with a sane, rational, loving mother she's always known. A mistake, no question, but an understandable one.
      • Then why didn't she try to appeal to her mother BEFORE running away from home, and it's not understandable, Garnet clearly says in lindblum that she thinks her mother is planing something terrible. It's not necessarily her naivety that irritates this troper (as he understands that she would at least be a LITTLE naive) but how she handles it. Instead of try to take things slowly and figure out what her mother is planing, she automatically assumes that her mother can be talked to, without thinking it through and abandons the people who kept her safe through the whole journey to lindblum (and she doesn't even get called out on it!). This troper thinks that she ran away from home to try to find out about what was causing her mother to act like this.
      • Again, it's presumed that she did (and later information in the game supports this), but she didn't appeal to Brahne prior to running away because she thought that Brahne would dismiss her concerns as a child's over-active imagination. Garnet lacked worldly experience, and Brahne likely thought her too naive to try getting outside help the way she did. As for her returning with hardly any backup, I say this: she'd just been told to stay in Lindblum's castle, doing nothing, by the same people who'd helped her to Lindblum in the first place. She thought she could make a difference in the proceedings against Burmecia if she returned to Alexandria and appealed to Brahne as a daughter. Keep in mind, though she may have known something was amiss with Brahne, Garnet still considered her to be her mother. And what's the most important thing to anyone? Family. Garnet was unwilling to believe her mother was beyond redemption, and thought she could help. This is evident even after she loses her eidolons: At the Iifa tree, Garnet tries to help Brahne by getting the sealed eidolon, only to realize Leviathan wouldn't help. Everything Garnet does in the first two discs is to try and bring back the loving mother she knew Brahne used to be. Love makes you blind, and familial love is no different.
      • There is nothing in the dialogue that implies that Zidane told Garnet to do nothing or that he would even leave her, this troper finds that it would be extremely out of character for zidane to do that. Also it is out of character for garnet to leave zidane like that, despite all that he has done for her.
      • Straight from the script:
        Dagger: "Alright then. Let's go to Burmecia."
        Steiner: "Princess! This is a foreign matter! It has nothing to do with us!"
        Regent Cid: "Steiner is right. We don't know if Alexandria is involved."
        Dagger: "But if black mages are involved... Zidane, you know what I'm talking about."
        Zidane: "......"
        Dagger: "If Mother is behind this, I'll make her stop! I promise!"
        Zidane: "...I think you should stay here."
        Dagger: "What!?"
      • Zidane pretty clearly told her to stay put while everyone else settled things in Burmecia. Garnet was upset by this, and used sleeping weed in the festival's feast on everyone's plate but Steiner's, and ran off to Alexandria to try to confront the source of the problem. Granted, she failed, but as this troper said, love is blind.
      • But zidane didn't actually say he was leaving her and going for burmecia himself, but even so, now that you show this, this entire scene bugs this troper, I find Zidane to be out of character. Also why did she say they should go to Burmecia and then suddenly decide to go to Alexandria? And why would regent CID have the feast go ahead after what he witnessed you would think he would cancel it. This troper thinks that zidane should have been unsure what to do, and Garnet would convince him to take her to burmecia to try and talk to the Alexandrian soldiers and convince them that the queen isn't in her right mind, and try to find information about the person responsible for her mother's behaviour (kuja), and still get a chance to talk to her mother (and Beatrix), but with more protection and no risks of traps, the same events would play out but disk 1 would end on a more tragic note.
      • The entire sequence wasn't included. Zidane tells Freya he's going to accompany her to Burmecia. Then the above sequence happens. Zidane tells Dagger that she doesn't know what war is all about. He doesn't want her to lose her innocence regarding war. She's upset about this, telling Marcus in Disc 2 that Zidane (and everyone else) was 'treating her like a child', and that's why she drugged him and left for Alexandria. She wanted to go to Burmecia at first because that's where the others were going. The reason for her going to Alexandria instead is that she wanted to try to talk Brahne into stopping the war against Burmecia. Distract the head of the serpent, and it can't do much. (For future reference, here is the script for the game, complete with ALL possible speech options for ALL NPCs. Someone had way too much time on their hands.)
      • But going back to Alexandria is exactly what Brahne wants, the eidolons, if you suspect that your mother is planning something bad you should do the exact opposite of what she wants. Getting back to zidane, he is still being out of character, he has feelings for garnet and then suddenly decides to leave despite all that they've done, why would zidane worry about her innocence regarding war they already saw what the black waltzes did. The characters are acting strange.
      • Firstly, Garnet didn't realize that Brahne was after the eidolons. All she knew was that Brahne wanted her back at the castle. Admittedly, this makes returning to Alexandria a dumb move, but I say again, love is blind. She thought she could reason with her mother to make her break off the attack on Burmecia. Secondly, Zidane (and everyone else) thought that Garnet, as a princess (and a naive one at that) shouldn't have to experience the horrors of war. Even Steiner, normally loyal to Garnet to a fault, balks at her decision to get involved in the war. It's as you say, Zidane has feelings for her. He wants to protect her. And what better way to protect her than keeping her away from danger? This is perfectly in-character for Zidane. When they find her unconscious in Alexandria later, Zidane is emotionally distraught. How can you say it's out of character to try to keep something you care about out of danger?
      • Then why did they let vivi go to burmecia who was a child and much younger and more innocent than garnet was.
      • Vivi sought understanding about the black mages, whom the dying Burmecian soldier had said were leading the attack. Vivi, through most of discs 1 and 2, seeks understanding about his own existence. Zidane and the others understand Vivi's feelings. Also, he isn't the heir to a country's throne. He's not important, in the long run. Neither are Zidane and Freya. Garnet, however, is NOT expendable on a mission into potentially hostile territory.
      • Zidane is still being out of character, he did a really good job protecting Garnet on the trip to lindblum, what makes him think he couldn't do so in burmecia, also the people attacking burmecia were the Alexandrians so Garnet wouldn't be in danger and she could talk to the soldiers, it would make the walk through burmecia a little safer. Zidane would know that garnet wants to do something about her kingdom and get information and zidane would vouch for her to go to burmecia. It would make much more sense for them to go to burmecia.
      • No, it would be out-of-character for Zidane to put a high-profile target in a WAR ZONE. And if the Black Waltzes are any indication, the regular Black Mages would likely be ordered by Zorn and Thorn to kill anyone accompanying Garnet and take her back to Alexandria. And the regular Alexandrian soldiers wouldn't be much better. They saw Garnet get 'kidnapped', and I'm sure they'd remember a kid with a monkey's tail. They'd likely arrest Zidane and the others, and take everyone back to Alexandria. Zidane and the others didn't want to paint a metaphorical bulls-eye on their group, hence the decision to leave Garnet behind. Also, no matter how powerful the group is in battle, in reality (and cutscenes) they wouldn't be able to cut down the entire Alexandrian army just to keep Garnet safe.
      • And as for Garnet being safe since the alexandrians are attacking is 'UTTERLY RETARDED'. That means BOTH sides will be hunting her down (Alexandrians hunting her down, Burmecians either forcing Brahne into a stall/surrender (which she will likely break once a deal to return Garnet is made, as it's quite doubtful that the Burmeicans and Cleyrans don't really know the power of their stone) or killing Garnet in the process. And last I checked on the scales, a Queen's word trumps a Princess's.
      • But Garnet could talk to the soldiers and convince them that the kidnapping was of her own free will and she could also convince the some of the soldiers that the queen isn't sane. Also zidane is pretty powerful he is supposed to be the ANGEL OF DEATH created by Garland and is the most powerful person in the game so I'm pretty sure he can handle some mook soldiers, also the group defeated the black waltzes who were much stronger than a regular soldier so I'm sure they can handle some mooks.
      • Until Beatrix shows up and just Shocks them a few times or whips out the Climhazzard or Stock Breaks. Even if you wanted to try the gameplay vs story angle with it, you're at a phase in the game in which the items aren't as plentiful; at best Zidane's best move is his Shift Break from The Ogre, and the Ethers would run out eventually; and Beatrix would have annihilated the party, sans Garnet. You also seem to think that all the soldiers are going to listen to Garnet, when in reality they will just as easily capture her and take her back much like the black mages/waltzes would have done. Zidane had no idea of his Angel of Death status until trance anyway, and that mechanic isn't as reliable or long lasting at that point in the game to be completely reliable either. Staying their ground or bringing Garnet with them would have been a tactical suicide.
      • Zidane may have been created as an angel of death, but he was never trained as such. And even if they could deal with the regular soldiers, eventually Beatrix would come out, and completely trash them like she did in the game. As for Garnet 'convincing' the soldiers to back down, think about it for a second: You're a loyal steadfast soldier in the service of a country, and your princess was kidnapped. Suddenly, she shows up, claiming that she willingly went along with her kidnappers. Are you really going to listen, or are you going to assume that she's been brainwashed? As for the Black Waltzes, they may have been more powerful than the standard Black Mages, but they were just three soldiers. Fighting an entire army of Black Mages is impossible, even for Zidane. Outside of the battle screen, Zidane would be blown to pieces by a barrage of magic, similar to what happened when Lindblum was assaulted.
      • But zidane powers were built in him, this troper thinks that he should be able to own a bunch of mook soldiers easily, also during the third fight with Beatrix his angel of death powers should have awakened some more, gave him a new transformation, and completely owned Beatrix. Also, remember zack fair from final fantasy 7 crisis core? At the end of the game he took out the entire shinra army and he was just a normal, natural person.
      • No, no, no, and no. What 'powers' has Zidane displayed that indicate he's been trained as an Angel of Death? This isn't DBZ, where someone can get stronger after every time they almost die. Kuja dropped Zidane on Gaia before Garland could finish the process of perfecting Zidane. Also, Zack was not a normal human. He was a Mako-enhanced SOLDIER, and was badass as a result. And, in the end, he got shot to death. By Shinra mooks. Says something, don't it?
      • Trance
      • And that is something he cannot take full advantage of and would wear out, most likely at a really inopportune time.
      • Zidane doesn't need to train, his powers are build in, it's just he wasn't fighting as he was supposed to when he was growing up so his powers lay dormant, one of the many problems with the game is that it is extremely vague on stuff, like how zidane was made and how his powers work. As for trance Zidane should have a unique trance and a second more powerful form of trance a superpoweredevilside/supersaiyan trance (angel of death mode with black angel wings) which would activate in the third and final battle against Beatrix and own her. Also the Alexandrian solders and black mages were mooks too like the Shinra soldiers so they wouldn't be much of a problem. Also zack was shot down by a helicopter out of his reach.
      • Zidane is not perfect. Kuja dropped him on Gaia before he was finished. Therefore, the theory that his powers as an 'angel of death' are dormant is completely debunked. Not to mention there is no in-game evidence to support the theory that Zidane had such powers within him. And even if he did, surely they would have awoken anyway when Beatrix defeated Freya, Vivi, Quina, and himself in Burmecia the first time? And regarding Zack, he may have been finished off by the chopper, but it was the mooks that wore him down. No-one is invincible. Let's take this super-powered Zidane. Alexandria has a ton of soldiers and Black Mages to spare. They would simply wear him down, then Beatrix would finish him off when he couldn't fight back anymore. This whole 'discussion' is pointless anyway. Having Garnet go to Burmecia would have been a dumb move, no matter the circumstances.
      • The intire thing on zidane being an angel of death was a wasted plot, and I wasn't saying zidane would beat Beatrix the first time but rather the third time when zidane's power had started to awaken, and zidane was disined by Garland to be the ultimate weapon, zidane is basically the Shadow the hedgehog of ffix, the mewtwo of ffix, they could have giving him a super mode like hollow ichigo from Bleach, anyways Beatrix is overpowered, also garnet going back to Alexandria is an even stupider move than going to burmecia and it makes the entire beginning of the game completely pointless, besides the exact same events would have taken place anyway it's just that going to burmecia wouldn't have made garnet look stupid, would have had a better chance to be protected by the entire group, would have had more focus and develop zidane and Garnet's romance and would have generally been better written and have the ending of disk 1 end in a more emotional and tragic way.
      • What in the FUCK are you talking about? Zidane's plot as an angel of death isn't wasted at all! Your "rewrite" would take what works now and turn it into a generic Shonen Anime! That sounds awful! Their bond grows significantly in disk 2 onwards, because in Disk 1, them two together in Zidane's current mindset/attitude would've driven them further apart! Garnet wasn't being stupid, but being Naive. She THOUGHT that going back home and reasoning with her mother would've helped stop the war! She knew her mother was up to something, but underestimated the scale of the damage and the depth of her Greed. Hell, she wasn't going to Burmecia either way: Go there and leave her mother unchecked, especially when the only person she loves is going to go to war? Not happening!
      • what do you mean Zidane's mindset? Garnet was the one acting like a child and a jerk, zidane loved and cared for her and should have had more focus, also garnet clearly stated that she wanted to go to bermecia, also Brahne WAS at bermecia so she still had the chance to see her but under better protection by zidane and his friends, plus the EXACT same things would have happened anyway just in a better written way so it's pointless to argue, zidane's angel of death plot is wasted because he had the potential to be one of the most powerful FF protagonists and yet he gets beaten around way too much.
      • Yes, because looking forward to the most powerful protagonist is the reason why we keep playing this series and the very reason why the Angel of Death plotline was introduced to the story, I'm sure. And other thing, she knew Brahne's army was in Burmecia, but she didn't know that the Queen was planning on actually visiting the devastation - or presiding over the attacks herself for that matter - hence the reason why she decides to go to Alexandria, the place where Brahne is guaranteed to be sooner or later. And another thing, define how Zidane should have had more focus, and how he "gets beaten around way too much." How much is way too much?
      • Garnet initially wanted to go to Burmecia because everyone else was going there. Zidane was arguably right that she didn't fully comprehend that it was a war zone everyone was going into. Garnet had been in the palace her whole life and saw the trip to Lindblum as a fun adventure. Her decision to go home could have been influenced by Zidane's words. She may have realised she shouldn't walk into a war zone - but at the same time she wanted to do something. She'd had a taste of freedom while travelling from Alexandria. And during her stay in Lindblum she was confined to her room and not allowed to leave the castle. She had to sneak past the guards to get up to the telescope area after all. She couldn't bear the thought of hanging around in Lindblum not being able to do anything while her mother was declaring war on another kingdom. She went back to Alexandria in the hopes of appealing to Brahne as a daughter. At this point Garnet wasn't aware of her mother's plans or that she was too far gone to be reasoned with.
      • But Garnet knew Brahne couldn't be reasoned with from the start, and zidane was being stupid and inconsiderate for garnet's feelings for not taking her and why couldn't they just have garnet convince zidane to take her to Bermecia, there is supposed to a love story with them and the game isn't playing it very well, why couldn't zidane just go where garnet goes, and the EXACT SAME events would have happened anyway so the argument is POINTLESS, also CID said he knew Brahne was after the eidolons, so why didn't he say it the first time they came? Plus Garnet's actions make the beginning of game completely pointless.
      • Incorrect: Garnet didn't say that she knew that Brahne couldn't be reasoned with - she just said that her mother was behaving oddly, nobody was taking Garnet's suspicions seriously, and that Cid might be her best bet to talk Brahne out of whatever she was planning. And yes, she changed her mind when news of the attack on Cleyra emerged, but before then, she didn't think that Brahne would go so far as invasion and genocide. Plus, this is just the first disc: the love story isn't that developed by this stage, remember; true, they've known each other for several days and the relationship's gone from "fellow adventurers" to "friends", but it hasn't gotten as far as actual romance. Meanwhile, as far as Cid's knowledge of eidolons goes, he didn't mention them because a) he wasn't willing to share that much confidential information with Garnet, as at this stage, he's treating her only as his niece, not as a powerful mage who might just be able to stop Kuja; and b) he later admits that he deeply underestimated the power of the eidolons, so on the first visit, he likely didn't think them serious enough to warrant a mention. Furthermore, is there any conclusive proof that the exact same events would have happened? (be warned: it sounds as if this has been mentioned several times before)
      • While Garnet's actions near the end of Disc 1 and the beginning of Disc 2 do make the whole 'kidnapping' plot pointless, the above paragraph is correct in saying that Garnet wasn't aware of just how much Brahne had changed. As for Zidane being 'stupid and ignorant of Garnet's feelings', again, she was being naive, and he knew it. He didn't want to expose her to the brutality of war, not to mention the fact that she's the flipping princess of Alexandria. Had she been brought to Burmecia, events would have gone differently, and not for the better. Brahne would have gotten the eidolons sooner, which would have been a disaster. Also, this troper has said it before, and will say it again; Zidane never was officially christened as an Angel of Death, because Kuja got him away from Garland before Zidane was finished being made. That plot wasn't wasted, it never started in the first place.

  • Okay, so, in the Desert Palace, Cid gets the key from the Hedgehog Pie and flips over the hourglass. When the hourglass ran out, the party was going to die. Obviously, keeping it from running is a good idea. But how come the cells open when he does this?
    • It's probably not unreasonable to assume that the controls for opening the cells are in the same room as the hourglass. After stopping it, Cid had a look around the room and found the controls to release everyone from the cells.
    • Kuja is also able to open the door to Zidane's cell pretty soon after activating the floor panel. Presumably the controls are in the same room.

  • In Memoria, Quina is the only party member who can't see the memories of Alexander fighting Bahamut. Zidane points out that this isn't in Quina's memory, since s/he wasn't with the rest of the team at the time. Fair enough-but then later in the dungeon Garland tells Zidane that the memory of a young Dagger fleeing the destruction of Madain Sari is from his memory. Why does Zidane incorporate a memory that happened some time ago, while Quina never incorporates the events in Alexandria? Is it because of the timeframe-Madain Sari being destroyed a decade ago, vs. the destruction of Alexander only happening a few weeks ago?
Final Fantasy VIIIHeadscratchers/GamesFinal Fantasy X

TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from
Privacy Policy