This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
From YKTTW
Why was the picture replaced? I think the previous one was much more... illustrative...
Ununnilium:
- Anything with Naughty Tentacles.
...no, that's usually literal rape.
Lale: I thought the point of using Naughty Tentacles was that they're symbolic, not literal, to bypass decency codes or whatever.
Man Called True: If Naughty Tentacles are merely symbolic, then something is up with those guys's genitals...
Nezumi: The original Naughty Tentacles were supposed to be stand-ins for male genetalia due to decency codes, essentially invented by Urotsukidoji because at the time, direct sexual scenes were illegal in manga and it offered plausible deniability. But that intention of it has largely become lost, and its become a fetish all its own—largely due to other works by the creator of Urotsukidoji. But either way, it wasn't intended to be symbolic in the sense Mind Rape refers to.
Kilyle: Does this trope apply in the case of Winnowill's psychic torture of Strongbow over two weeks (in the comic Elf Quest)? It doesn't break him, but in a later issue it explains that anyone who goes up against Winnowill's powers does suffer intense nightmares for a long time thereafter, and the torment alone was what made me think it might belong. But it doesn't seem to fit some of the other details of this trope, and we don't actually get to see what images, if any, she is forcing him to see (it may be direct psychic damage without imagery).
Lale: From what you wrote, it sounds like it, but I've never read the comic...
Dr Dedman: It counts. What she does to Dewshine would probably count double (Strongbow is essence of Bad Ass). The total list of victims and threatened victims would probably run to the dozens, Winnowill is NOT a nice lady.
Unknown Tropper: You keep stressing that it's not sexual. Alas, it was purely about sex in Star Trek. In both times it happened (the latter was in a movie) the, ah, mind rapist waited before he did it. Waited for what, you ask? Waited until Troi had physical sex with Riker. Only then could he use the mind rape to simulate actual phsyical rape by Riker. That is, he used the real sex with Riker to make her think Riker was raping her instead of making consensual love to her. Nothing graphical, of course, but the sex was real alright. The mind control just made it look like rape.
Lale: That's still her mind being messed with, then, if she wasn't being raped but made to think she was.
Unknown Tropper: Of course. But the sex was real, and thus...it was sexual. I don't think it's exactly the same as a "pure" mind rape.
Lale: "Compare to Mind Screw when this is done to the audience." A little extreme, don't you think?
Bob: Yes, I do think so, I was going for Refuge in Audacity, with maybe just a bit of Rule of Funny.
Lale: Still worded weirdly. Mind Screw describes an effect on the audience; Mind Rape, the effect on a character. No Mind Screw was ever overwhelming enough to Mind Rape the audience.
Bob: Not even Neon Genesis Evangelion or Metal Gear Solid 2?
Bob: I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting that is was that bad, I was really asking. I haven't seen Neon Genesis Evangelion. Is it really as bad as people say it is?
Lale: And I was being sarcastic ;) No, of course it's not bad — it's incredible! I think of NGE as "stream of consciousness" but visual instead of literary. The early episodes are relatively "normal," but by ep 18, all bets are off, and it's the freakiest, weirdest, saddest thing you can't imagine. It's the kind of stuff only a seriously troubled mind could come up with, all right. And it rocks!
Bob: Okay, then. There are some difficulties in understanding the written language in discussions like this. (Do we have a trope for that yet?)
Lale: I don't know, but it's the reason I hate IMing.
Meagen: HOW I MAEK LINK?!!? I can't seem to figure out the syntax to make a link to "Anvilicious" with the text "very subtle". Help?
HeartBurn Kid: OK, the syntax for an easter egg link looks like this:
Caswin: Anomalous Star Trek The Next Generation example notwithstanding, does this really belong in "Sex Tropes"?
Caswin: Removing as per above. While I'm here, do examples of more traditional brainwashing belong here? The Batman examples look dodgy.
That Other 1 Dude: It wasn't brainwashing, it was phycological torture.
Caswin: Well, I was talking about the other two, where Joker does brainwash people. (My main issue with the comic one is that when I hear "mind rape", I generally think of a psychic assault or something like that.)
That Other 1 Dude: Removed:
- Real Life example: "Miko Miko Nurse."
Assuming it's talking about that flash video that induces seizures, that would be Brown Note.
Ophicius: Conversation In The Main Page:
- Although in this case he's not assaulting so much as turning the other's pre-existing fear and doubt back on him.
- ...which is pretty much how Mind Rape goes down anyway, Mr Justifying Edit Guy
- Although in this case he's not assaulting so much as turning the other's pre-existing fear and doubt back on him.
Lale: Cut "In Law And Order: SVU, the son of an ex-Taliban politician living in America kills his younger sister for refusing her Arranged Marriage and sleeping with her boyfriend. However, Cragen's team later learns that the culprit actually did plead for his sister's life, but his evil father beat the subject so brutally into his own son's mind through psychological and physical abuse that, when the guy killed her, it was mostly after he finally lost it."
That was the defense's argument, and it was bogus.
That Other 1 Dude: Removed
- Avatar The Last Airbender: In the Grand Finale, Aang — as in, The Hero... the ''Kid Hero — spiritually reaches into Ozai's soul and removes his power to Firebend. Because he can't just kill him. That would be wrong.
Goddammit, that is not Mind Rape; it didn't appear to effect his mind or even hurt that much. Nor does is it really worse than death.
''Borrowed from Avatar The Last Airbender Discussion:
Charred Knight: Anyone complaining about Fire Lord Ozai should read Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time, where the act of stilling/gentling removes the ability to channel from a person. In this circumstance the victim will usually die relativly quickly as they lose the will to live, and that's in the outside world. All of the victims that are given this punishment are shown to be shells of their former selves even when revenge is in the works. A scene in the series shows channelers being unnerved even when they temporarly lose the power to channel, and one of those who lost the ability to channel temporarly compared the whole thing to losing the sun. Now equate that to Ozai who has not only lost all his bending abilities but the ability to live in the outside world only having a small cell to live in. Aang has ruined his life, he can no longer bend, he can no longer be outside. He has nothing, Aang has taken everything away from him that truly matters to him. Death is a welcome respite from the unending misery that is Ozai's existence. Ozai has lost the sun, and everything that brings joy, and happyness. Aang is one sick fucking bastard.
Lale: Thus raising the question of why heroes with a strict Thou Shalt Not Kill doctrine don't have a "thou shalt not inflict a Fate Worse than Death" doctrine. An effective Fate Worse than Death (like this one) is the ultimate loophole for censors, and the conscience, that still delivers Emotional Torque, even more than a simple killing would.
Charred Knight: Thinking about it you might be right about this not being an accident by the directors. If you look at the final scene with Ozai his shown huddling in a corner with a blanket on when its clearly not cold. That his life now, wearing a blanket in warm weather, huddling in that corner.
Lale: Some page on this site used the term "spiritual castration." Since Aang pretty much removed a piece of his soul, would this qualify as Mind Rape?
AkatsukiDaybreak: That has totally changed my opinion of the finale. You're right, Aang is much sicker than I imagined. Killing Ozai would've been much kinder than what he did. I think that definitely belongs in Mind Rape.
Lale: I thought so.
Bob: Uhm, Ozai doesn't even notice that his bending is gone until he attempts to kill Aang with it. Also Charred Knight's comparison of two entirely different and unrelated works of fiction is so utterly ridiculous that I don't even know why you bothered making it. Bending has nothing in common with channeling. Your argument basically boils down to "he is going to suffer horribly because what was done to him is similar to something which, in another work of fiction, makes the victim suffer horribly". There are Subjective Tropes on this wiki, but Mind Rape isn't one of them.
- Their mind and soul are assaulted with painful visions and memories, and they're broken until they're powerless and numb, but not dead, although afterwards, they may wish they were. Nothing sexual occurs, but everything else is there to resemble a rape. The physical attacks won't go very far; all the agony is inflicted mentally and emotionally, and it's chilling to see a villain be that cruel. The traumatized victim suffers all the side-effects afterwards: isolation, depression, insomnia, paranoia, and may even get an Important Haircut when starting to recover.
He doesn't suffer ANY of the symptoms described in the article, there is no suffering, agony, torment, pain, or any other synonyms that I can be bothered to think of and trying to make it an example is nothing but pure distilled Fan Wank.
Lale: Still, the idea of "bending" someone's spirit and ripping out their power is so... violating. (It actually brought to my mind one of my favorite passages in His Dark Materials — the example listed here, by coincidence.) Compare the Ozai in prison at the end with the Ozai fighting the Avatar ("I have all the power in the world!"). Broken man.
Bob: I think that it's more "Man, I would have been Emperor of the World right now if it weren't for You Meddling Kids"-broken than "Man, that Aang kid sure violated my entire being with that stunt"-broken.
Sketch: The last shot of Ozai is an angry and bitter man, not a traumatized individual. I gonna have to agree with those that say this isn't Mind Rape. More of an outright punishment.
alliterator: I rewrote the entry so that it shows that it's subjective, depending on your point of view. I personally think that it wasn't Mind Rape - after all, Ozai wasn't forced to experience painful emotions or physical torment, but just life in jail without powers. It's like all those mutants who were depowered after M-Day - they weren't mind raped, just depowered. And they didn't even deserve it.
Charred Knight: Sketch, you don't think that going from one of the most physically powerful people in the world one minute, than being a weak powerless man in a cell the next wasn't traumatizing? You need to think of this from Ozai's point of view, his got nothing left, he can no longer bend, he has no power, and his basically the laughing stock of the world. He doesn't even have a bed, and this is a guy whose been pampered his whole life.
Lale: Katara is so deeply distressed at the thought of having the power "to reach inside someone and control" their body. Reaching inside someone and bending their soul should strike as even worse.
Bob: To respond to each one of you:
(Charred Knight) Traumatizing? maybe. Mind Rape? No.
(Lale) Using people's bodies as meat-puppets, forcing them to attack their beloved friends isn't Mind Rape (at least not in this case).
(alliterator): While I appreciate you attempt to broker peace in this disagreement, there is no need for a Your Mileage May Vary header. Mind Rape isn't a Subjective Trope, it doesn't fit the article description, it simply isn't an example.
- Avatar The Last Airbender: Bloodbending (turning someone into a puppet by bending the water in the human body), "reaching inside someone and controlling them," is seen as evil and violating, yet the Kid Hero punishes the Big Bad Ozai in the Grand Finale by removing his Firebending power via Soulbending. Think about how that sounds for a minute.
- It's worth it to note that Ozai doesn't appear to have suffered anything else besides loss of bending. Whether this counts as a true Mind Rape or not is subjective and depends on your point of view.
Cutting it. Again. because of the whole, y'know, not being an example.
- "Hello, I'm Joo Dee. Welcome to Ba Sing Se." Now that's a Mind Rape.
No, that's Brainwashing. Sometimes brainwashing takes the form of a Mind Rape, but that's not the case here.
Mystyc: Saying that this is Mind Rape because he knocked Ozai from super-powerful to not powerful at all doesn't work. That means it wouldn't be nearly as "traumatizing" if Ozai wasn't obsessed with power to begin with. Looks more like Karmic Justice at that point — if you can't use your power responsibly, you won't have any power at all. If anything, the real Fate Worse than Death is being kept in prison by the son you never saw as worth anything, and who has taken your throne. But these are all attacking Ozai's ego, not his mind.
Yogi: In response to Charred Knight, let's say that Ozai, instead of having Firebending powers, instead had a Humongous Mecha that he used to do his evil deeds of evilness. Then, Aang blows up his mech and tosses him in jail. Would this be considered "Mind Rape"? He still goes from being mighty and powerful to being in prison.
Lale: Yeah, because someone reaching into your soul and bending your very spirit is the same as someone stealing your car.
Yogi: Actually, I experienced both, and they really ARE about the same. The prevsious statement was a lie, I've never been Spiritbended and neither have you, so who'se to say which is worse? The question we should be asking is, does the process look like "Their mind and soul are assaulted with painful visions and memories, and broken until they're powerless and numb, but not dead, although afterwards they may wish they were."?
Lale: Intercision doesn't do that, either, but nobody can deny that's supposed to be analogous to rape.
Charred Knight: So your saying having someone rip a part of your soul out is about the same as someone stealing your car?
Danel: Seriously, where is this described as "ripping out part of his soul?". 'Soul Bending' is really more of a Fan Nickname for it than anything else - it's described as "bending the energy within ourselves" or something similar. You keep changing your argument - one minute you're claiming that it's the loss of his power that's the real sadistic element, when someone calls you on that you fall back claims about it "ripping out souls" and yet more comparisons to entirely different things from entirely different works. No, I can't deny that Intercision is analagous to rape, but I certainly can deny that Spiritbending is.
Nlpnt: A couple points;
- I had mentioned on the ATLA discussion page; Zuko, not Aang, controls Ozai's prison conditions; and given the nature of the Fire Nation he inherited and his plans for it, Zuko no doubt has a wide choice of recently disused dungeons far worse than the one he's holding Ozai in now.
- Also something I brought up elsewhere around here, as long as we're comparing other stories, Orochimaru wasn't as heavily affected by having the "soul" of his arms removed, which not only removed his jutsus but all use of his arms. Meaning, although it wasn't shown onscreen, he was dependent on caregivers for basic necessities during that period. But- he still had his followers, he was still the Kage of the Sound Village. Ozai's in jail.
Just to add to the discussion:
- If you take the finale's 'light show' literally, it seems as though Aang was forcing his chi into Ozai's body against his will. Maybe not Mind Rape the way TV Tropes has defined it, but that has to be Spirit Rape or something.
Whitewings: Having seen the episode repeatedly, and considered the matter carefully, what Aang does to Ozai is not Mind Rape. It's a Villainous Breakdown resulting from Aang removing his powers. The trauma doesn't come from the energybending; it comes from Ozai's inability to deal with the consequences.
Bob: Some cuts.
- As all ships in the Star Trek Universe travel the same way up, this is not as much of a problem as it might sound. Here's the proof.
- As all ships in the Star Trek Universe travel the same way up, this is not as much of a problem as it might sound. Here's the proof.
Completely irrelevant Take That!.
- Interestingly, Heroes offers us another example of Mindrape this one much more literal, Syler actually scalps Claire and finds out how her powers work by studying her brain.
That's doesn't sound a Mind Rape.
- One could make an argument that Lelouch himself has fallen into this territory, as he's resorted to Geassing people to follow his every command, which would essentially strip them of their free will every time he gives them an order. As we've seen with people like Jeremiah, Sayoko and Suzaku, people under the command of Lelouch's Geass often have little to no memory of their actions after the control wears off, but the fact that the orders might go squarely against what they believe or want almost makes it worse.
- I don't there's any argument at all that Lelouch is guilty of mind rape, given that the total denial of free will and the trauma and/or death that frequently result from his Geass throughout the series. The only thing you can say in his favor is that he never used his Geass for physical, actual rape; which he certainly could have, except that he shows no interest in the opposite (or same) sex... although Kallen was seriously worried that her feelings for Lelouch might have been the result of a Geass. They weren't.
- One could make an argument that Lelouch himself has fallen into this territory, as he's resorted to Geassing people to follow his every command, which would essentially strip them of their free will every time he gives them an order. As we've seen with people like Jeremiah, Sayoko and Suzaku, people under the command of Lelouch's Geass often have little to no memory of their actions after the control wears off, but the fact that the orders might go squarely against what they believe or want almost makes it worse.
That's Brainwashed, not Mind Rape.
Earnest: I sorted the examples and added a paragraph listing the different kinds of Mind Rape more explicitly. We can split the example list further if we make a "saw something Eldritch Abomination-y" category.
Removed the following example:
Because it's not an accurate description of what happened. Leatherhead's torture was, as far as evidenced by Leatherhead's bandages and all the cutting equipment, was physical, not mental. While there may have been a mental component, the only evidence so far comes from Leatherhead's memories, which, given the situation and his mental state, may or may not be accurate. While brutal, and a likely moral event horizon for the character, Bishop's torture was not mind rape.
Is there a real life instance of mind rape?
Ms Shaw: Derren Brown?
Larange: Why has no one added what Joker does to Commissioner Gordon in the Batman graphic novel "The Killing Game"?
Caswin: It used to be. It's probably gone due to a perceived difference between psychological torture and direct manipulation of the mind.
Count Dorku: Until I got here, there were two: one in each category. Despite The Killing Joke being mundane torture and not direct psychic assault.
Ms Shaw: Removed this:
- This Troper is reading a fan fic called Help! that deals with the Doctor's trauma from Midnight. It has an passage that kills this troper:
"He felt like he had been violated. His mind wasn’t his, his body wasn’t his, and his voice wasn’t his. It had taken over, and there hadn’t been a damn thing he could have done to stop it, and he tried. So hard he tried to stop it, to force it out, but it was stronger than he was."
Replace the male pronouns with female ones, and this could have described an actual rape. Scary.
For three reasons: 1) Bad formatting. 2) Upon searching, I couldn't find this fanfic anywhere on the usual places or even on Google. 3) Uh, so Rape Is Okay When Its Female On Male? I was just going to fix it up and remove the offensive line until I tried searching for it. Anyone knows what this editor was talking about?
Vampire Buddha: Cleaned up the first anime and comic sections.
