I actually think this show is more subtle than you make it out to be, Kamina is not just the manliest man that ever lives, he realizes that Simon is the real hero of the story and tries to get him to realize that. Kamina is over the top and never afraid because he needs to do that to lead his men, he feels fear, and when he's not making speeches he's quiet and pretty smart, look at his conversations with Yoko in episode seven and eight.
Yeah, I've watched the show about three times now, but I do think you learn to appreciate the show more that way. Simon realizes that Yoko thinks of him as a brother and is in love with Kamina, not him, plus most of his attraction was probably based on the fact that she's an exotic badass, they never had a whole lot of interaction in the first half of the series. Not to mention that because of his feelings for Yoko Kamina dies...guilt is not great for relationships.
Yes, the show is not perfect, but it really, really does work, it's one of the few shows that have made me cry, just hearing the first three seconds of Libera Me From Hell sends shivers down my spine. If you're bothered by the Mood Whiplash, keep in mind that TTGL is a tribute to mecha anime, pay attention to some of the exposition and how it gets increasingly complicated, the Art Evolution is another huge element to it. You're right about the ending sucking a big one though.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
I'd like to thank you for replying to my review and presenting feedback.
I wrote my review (which, incidentally, is the first on this site) the way I did so I could point out that the show wasn't "the best ever", as I've heard claimed a couple of times, byt it wasn't a bad show either. It would probably go on my Top 5 Anime (though I have admittedly not watched a lot).
In addition, I meant to put here that "The characters seem like cookie-cut from anime cliches along with the premise, but that's probably what Gainax was going for: A tribute to old-fasioned anime, a a pretty good one at that." I ran out of space, though, and that's why most of my review is critical rather than praising. I liked the action sequences, and the overall "Spiral" theme of the show, displaying how things become more and more complex and awesome as time goes on. The show has made me laugh a couple of times, and I liked almost all of the plot (with the exception of, of course, the ending).
[troll]
TTGL also lends itself to hyperbole due to the over the top nature of the show.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
The ending's main problem is that a lot of it's subtle where the entire episode had been rather straightforward - everything makes sense, but you've got to do a bit of thinking when you're mind's been numbed by the sheer over-the-top nature of the episode. The ending theme probably should've been cut to get time to make that shift more clear.
The ending works, it just seems like a cheap shot to get a Bittersweet Ending, it could've just as easily turned out another way, and Simon's "No, we have to let her die." "But couldn't w- "NO! SHE'S DEAD AND I'M GOING TO RETIRE!" Is a tad OOC, I guess you could call it character development, but it seems like such a perversion of the entire show so far.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
I'd just like to give my point of view about one detail :
"Seeing the show's heroes become old and decrepit in the Distant Finale also felt like a punch to the gut."
Yes, so very much. Same for the above comment about how the ending is a "perversion of the entire show". This is how I felt when I first finished watching the series. I found it a bit sad that all the talk about breaking barriers and going beyond the impossible had to end like that.
However, I also thought that it couldn't have ended any other way (or at least not in a very different way). One of the main themes is "crating a path", which is repeated several times with all sorts of words throughout the series. Each generation has to do its best and then make way for the next one, who will continue and enhance the work of their elders. The spiral goes outwards, growing and developing, not inwards, shriveling and dying. That's why Simon surpasses Kamina and is taller than him when they "meet" in the Lotus Eater Machine. That's why he gives the Core Drill to Gimmy.
That's also why the characters are "old and decrepit" and why Simon, at the very end, says "Guess I'm no one". The show isn't about stagnation and cherishing old glory. Simon is not a hero to be forever acclaimed, he's now just an old man, like his friends. It isn't his task to go into space and meet the other Spirals. So even if you feel this "punch in the gut" at seeing the characters getting old, it's only a new beginning. Preventing them from aging or resurrecting Nia, whether or not Spiral Power allows this kind of thing (I believe it does, but that's only a matter of personal opinion), would only lead to stagnation. Well, anyway, that's my thoughts on the ending.
However, I will wholeheartedly agree that having Nia simply disappear does indeed seems like it forces an unneeded Bittersweet Ending, but it's a minor quirk in an ending I found otherwise very much in keeping with the true themes of the show (that is, something that goes a bit deeper than "OMFG GIANT ROBOTS". Though giant robots are awesome).
[anonymous, troll]
What's wrong with that? Why can't you take this show and it's message seriously, because it had comedy and some over the top moments? I really don't see how that precludes you from being having interesting themes. A Clockwork Orange has some goofy scenes in it, but it had an incredibly powerful message. The Dark Knight has some silly bits to it, but it also says some pretty profound things about humanity. I really don't see how TTGL being a Super Robot Anime stops it from being deep or insightful.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
[troll]
Honestly my biggest gripe with the series is, as is often the case, actually with the fandom. Oh, to experience this series in a vacuum away from neckbeards shouting that Kamina is Captain Ubercool forever.
I admit that the bile I've spat at the series previously was undeserved; it has its flaws, but it's a good show. My main problem with the show itself is that I have a very hard time caring about the characters, though naturally you could write that off as a problem with me rather than the show.
Wrestler, bodybuilder. No hopes, no dreams.
"Because the message is naive, unrealistic, and kind of stupid?"
I see...a cynic. Okay, one, just because you don't agree with the message doesn't mean that the message wasn't well delivered, and two, what's naive about the message that you shouldn't back down if you believe in something, and that if people only see the bad side of something that's all you'll ever get.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
[troll]
All cynics call themselves realists. Stephen Colbert has some things to say about cynicism that you might find interesting.
I don't really see how that comment was relevant to this discussion, but I'll respond. Of course people believe that only the things they believe are worth dying for. It's human nature to think that your own beliefs are worth more than other peoples, that's why we believe them in the first place.
Yes your beliefs can get you killed, why does that matter? There are plenty of things that are worth dying for, and this show's entire point is that you don't need to die or kill for them.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
[troll]
Just because I tell someone to fight for their beliefs doesn't mean I have to fight for their beliefs, note the key word, "their".
Yep, this story is fantastical, is the message fantastical? No, Ghandi, MLK, Mandela, three people who did more for their cause by being The Messiah than Shooting The Dog, just because a choice is more difficult doesn't mean it's better.
Good results aren't necessarily born from bad methods either, so that point means jack.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
[anonymous, troll]
It's not a Super Robot anime if the main moral isn't something extremely cheesy that doesn't necessarily apply to real life.
Really though, TTGL's meaning and moral, like with any work of art, ultimately depends on the viewer. Taking the above argument, Phrederic learned from the show that standing up for what you believe in is something everyone can do, while 130.49.70.185 learned that standing for what you believe in is nice but ultimately pointless in anything outside of a fantasy world and that sometimes you should just Know When To Fold Em.
troll post. deleted.
It's funny that someone who believes in subjectivity is calling another person's beliefs "wrong".
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
[trolling]
I'm probably going to rewrite this sometime. When/If I do, I'll explain some stuff and post the previous review here.
My opinion of the series hasn't changed, but I appreciate it a little more.
130.49.70.154 Seriously all your posts are loaded with Cynicism and pretentiousness and I'm guilty of the former in spades and even I loved TTGL.
First off you call someone a Hypocrite for doing the exact same thing your doing yourself defending a belief. If he/she's a hypocrite then so are you.
As for being stupid enough to get away with it via DEM' in case your forgot one of the stupidest characters in the series got killed off in the first 8 episodes.
Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
Not to say I don't love Kamina but he was an idiot.
Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
Lol, about the message being unrealistic. Basically it means, do your best always, force yourself, and things won't be the best for you always, but they will be better.
Kamina died. Simon lost Nia. Kittan died. ALL team Dai-Gurren died. Rossiu almost did an assisted genocide. They all did their best and fought against the odds. And the end result was humanity surviving. It sucked for each one of them but it paved the future.
This show isn't about DEM. It's about lighting and passing the torch. As Kamina did. You know why he wanted Simon to pilot? Why he always relied on him? Because Kamina knew the only thing he could do was rallying people. He wasn't stupid, he used his gift. He didn't Leeroy Jenkied, he set traps and made strategies. Who's idea was taking on Enkidu without Lagann?
He's right. I love Gurren Lagann, but honestly, the Fan Dumb can get to be a little much sometimes. It definitely has flaws, but people enjoy it so much that they think OMGBESTSHOWEVERSODAMNEDPERFECTYESYESETC and criticize anyone who has a remotely different opinion. The point of a review is to *review* not to dote.
I don't even feel like watching this show out of fear that I might turn into a drooling, retarded fanboy like so many others.
...Not really. I think I'll just be severly disappointed.
The anime community (and the video game one) disappoints me all the time too.
I'm going to give Kamina credit; they squeezed as much depth out of his as they possibly could before his inevitable demise. But yes, he does fall pray to some serious overhype, as does the whole series. It was a good and fun series for the most part, but there were a good deal of flaws in the writing for plot and characterization, the tone of the show was deliberately stupid as an Affectionate Parody to cheesy super robot shows, the second half had a awful story, and this review had the right idea about the ending. You CANNOT say a show with an ending like that is perfect or even all that great for that matter. I'm sorry, but you just can't.
However, this review kind of missed the point on the whole "the heroes' mentality doomed the universe" thing. Yes, eventually the universe would die but did that mean that they should let the Anti Spiral eradicate all life? Hell no. The Anti Spiral was both insane and wrong; he wanted to wipe out sentinent life so that the universe could live on. All for the sake of the universe itself. What good is a universe if there's no life in it? So the heroes would rather the universe die one day as a result of their actions as long as it means people get to keep on living and existing.
I always felt that Simon wouldn't have been content if he stayed with the others towards building the future. By the time the series ended he was very much a man of action and had show previously post time skip that he isn't much of a leader outside of battle. He is inspiring to be sure, but he is confident that humanity will be able to move on without him and rely on themselves without his help and the ending shows that yes, humanity is and they're now stretching out to the stars getting together with all the other spiral races for the good of all. He made the right decisions in that regard. The part about him not resurrecting Nina does surprise me, but then why didn't he resurrect Kamina or the other members that died in the battle with the anti-spiral? Ever thought of that? Also as for characterization, well there is reasonable development for most of the main and some of the second characters
Afterthought: I suppose that Simon not ressurecting Nina was him think it could lead to Jumping Off The Slippery Slope. Just saying.
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Overrated.
When I had heard about this series, I had thought "Well, okay. This sounds cool, but it probably isn't as good as the hundreds of tropers gushing about it are making it sound." When I watched the series, well, I was right.
I felt that the show was overtly chauvanistic with its characters, claiming by believing hard alone would allow you to break the laws of physics. I understand the moral, but it's completely Anvilicious and overtly optimistic. This is particularly glaring in the last leg of the second arc, where the protaganists go outright into Invincible Hero territory, which completely ruins the tension that had been set up earlier. As for the characters themselves, I really didn't feel that I could feel for them. They just seemed to be cookie-cut-out from anime character cliches. Kamina I felt was overhyped from being shown as "the manliest man in fiction", and he didn't have much depth. I felt that the character development (that doesn't consist of shouting "ROW ROW FIGHT DAH POWAH") also had issues. At the beginning of the series, it's implied that Simon has a crush on Yoko. This is completely dropped by the time he meets the resident Moeblob, Nia. There are other opportunities like this throughout that sadly don't come into full fruition, which is a real shame. I could go on, but I only have 400 words to use.
Now, is this show bad? By no means! If you're looking for a series that has a bunch of explosions, cool stuff and great animation, this is it. I'll admit that this is easily the most fun anime that I've ever watched, but (again) not the best.
I felt that what killed the series (and likely made me like the show less) was the ending. A show about doing the impossible by pushing yourself to the limit ends with the universe eventually becoming doomed because of this very idea. Adding to that comes what happens to the remaining characters. Does our hero get a happy ending? Nope, he spends the rest of his life living as a homeless wanderer. Seeing the show's heroes become old and decrepit in the Distant Finale also felt like a punch to the gut. Thankfully, you and I can always just pretend it never happened and think our characters lived happily for the rest of their lives.
Overall, the show is flawed but worth watching if you can avoid the Hype Backlash that's generated from the internet.