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kingofall Since: Jun, 2016
Jun 8th 2016 at 2:24:05 PM •••

Speaking of "Mary Sues", I have questions about "flaws". Hypothetically, I have this character who I want to be competent and at the same time, friendly and moral. I know the Anti Hero is very popular but that is obviously not what I am going for. To be honest, I read through a list of what people consider "flaws" and most of them would make my character seem like a complete jerk and/or very incompetent. In other words, how can I make a character "relatable" without falling into the same old Idiot/Anti Hero trap?

ShadowDog Since: Jan, 2001
Jan 9th 2011 at 2:40:22 AM •••

Don't list this on a work's page? Next you'll tell us not to list Egregious or Trope as a trope on a work's page. Seriously, this isn't a fan-speak term, this is a how-to guide. Could you remove the "Fan Speak" tag? It makes no sense in this context.

Edited by ShadowDog Hide / Show Replies
DragonQuestZ Since: Jan, 2001
Jan 9th 2011 at 3:48:31 AM •••

It still shouldn't be listed on a work page anyway, as this isn't a trope. Plus Trope shouldn't count as an argument, as this page isn't part of the basis of this very site. The other word actually is overused to the point where there is little reason to put it on a page.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
ShadowDog Since: Jan, 2001
Jan 9th 2011 at 3:01:03 PM •••

My point was that you wouldn't list either as a trope, just like you wouldn't list this as a trope. If we're going to note that you shouldn't list this as a trope on a work's page, then why not do the same for Super Mario, Command And Conquer, YKTTW, and Tips Worksheet? Because, seriously, you aren't going to list Command And Conquer on a work's page. Command & Conquer Economy, sure, but not Command And Conquer. By the same logic, you might list Mary Sue as a trope used, but that's discouraged (thus the reason for this tag). I wasn't aware that So You Want To/ contained tropes in the same way Main/ does.

DragonQuestZ Since: Jan, 2001
Jan 10th 2011 at 9:28:27 AM •••

"then why not do the same for Super Mario, Command And Conquer, YKTTW, and Tips Worksheet?"

NONE of those are tropes. I really mean if you are to list this on a page, you can, but make sure it's listed as a form of Useful Notes, not as a trope.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011
Oct 17th 2013 at 7:54:39 AM •••

What the Gentleman above you is TRYING to say, is that there is simply no need to ask editors not to list this guide on a work's page because Common Sense says they won't list it ANYWAY.

Madcapunlimited Since: Feb, 2011
Mar 4th 2013 at 7:27:17 AM •••

Stephen King makes a good point about this "Mary Sue" thing in his "On Writing" book where he says over and over again "you have to kill your darlings." It explains, for example, why Nick Andros was killed off in The Stand.

Rebochan Since: Jan, 2001
May 27th 2010 at 12:13:29 PM •••

As a pure cynic about the out of control Mary Sue explosion, I would think the best advice anyone could give about not writing Mary Sue characters would be - don't write. No matter what, all character traits are Mary Sue traits and all characters are therefore some type of Sue.

If you MUST actually attempt creative writing, write about inanimate objects. Because if nothing else, it would be hysterical if a desk lamp was accused of being a Black Hole Sue.

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Underachiever Since: Nov, 2010
Nov 11th 2010 at 7:07:22 AM •••

While Rebochan may be going a bit far above, looking over the page as it currently stands there certainly do seem to be rather long lists of what not to do...and relatively little advice on what to actually do if one wants to write about a non-Sue original character. And that's not really helpful — if you want to show somebody how to get better at something, teaching them what actually works is usually more effective than endlessly bringing up the mistakes you're worried they might make (including, of course, all those that wouldn't even have occurred to them before you suggested them in the first place!).

So, yeah; as it stands I don't think the page is living up to its potential. Darn, too; I have some concerns about a prospective character or two of my own, but there isn't much here that I could use to help with that.

DragonQuestZ Since: Jan, 2001
Nov 11th 2010 at 10:54:37 AM •••

You could bring this up in Trope Repair. I would support some reworking.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Peter34 Since: Sep, 2012
Nov 30th 2010 at 10:04:18 AM •••

Much of this article seems to be about the original meaning of Mary Sue, that is within the context of fan fiction. As someone who has no interest in writing (or reading) fan fiction, that rather bothers me.

How about a separate article along the same lines buth devoid of fan fiction concerns and issues, on How to Write an Escapist Character?

Because that's what many writers of non-fan fiction guilty of Mary Sue are aiming at (but missing). I mean original world fiction, set in a world built by the writer, with all original characters.

The two article, Avoid Mary Sue, and this new one, could (should) link to each other, and the new one should obviously link to the Escapist Character trope.

I won't start this new article, but if someone else does, I might well try contributing to it.

As for this one, separating out that advice which is only relevant for fan fiction writers, from that which is of usefulness to everyone, would be a *really* good move, and greatly increase the value of this article. (And alleviate the concern that some people might harbour that this wiki is only really for fan fic writers and has no usefulness for serious writers.)

(Also, in general, accusations of Mary Sue are wildly overused. I've run a couple of characters I've created through an online Mary Sue test, and they both got very high MS scores, in spite of being legitimate. Apparently whoever created that test (as well as most of the people who run around saying "Mary Sue" all the time) are deeplyu offended by any fictional individual who deviates from the statistical norm in an upwards direction.)

Edited by Peter34
Korval Since: Jan, 2001
Jan 28th 2011 at 11:19:02 PM •••

I don't think another article is necessary or warranted. There are special considerations for fan fiction, but the basic concept of a Mary Sue is shared in all fiction. Therefore, advice to avoid writing one should be equally shared for all fiction.

Also, looking at the article, there isn't that much specifically about fanfic, Particularly towards the beginning.

Madcapunlimited Since: Feb, 2011
Mar 4th 2013 at 7:26:31 AM •••

A lot of it actually does seem to be about fanfiction (talking about canon characters vs "original characters" etc).

FurryKef Since: Jan, 2001
Aug 9th 2012 at 11:37:40 AM •••

I had an idea that just occurred to me, though I'm reluctant to put it in the article because I'm not particularly experienced here.

Try creating a supporting character who has a legitimate reason for disliking your possible Sue, or at least getting annoyed with him/her from time to time. For example, if your possible Sue talks a big game, have someone who can deflate him/her. It's important that this supporting character's reasons be convincing — a Straw Man will not convince the audience of anything and can make the problem worse (by implying that anybody who dislikes your Sue is an idiot). In Sonic SatAM, Sonic frequently annoys Sally; in Family Guy, Brian annoys Quagmire; in the webcomic Out There, Miriam annoys virtually everyone from time to time, though everybody loves her (except James). By contrast, in the newspaper comic Frazz, nobody dislikes Frazz, though they may be jealous of him, contributing to the idea that Frazz is infallible and therefore a Mary Sue.

If you cannot create a character who dislikes your possible Sue, and is never upset or annoyed with him/her, you can remove "possible" from "possible Sue". Being able to but not wanting to is also a sign — it suggests you're too in love with the character, which is exactly the sort of thing that causes Sues to happen.

Another, unrelated idea is to have your character fail at a major objective, no matter how cool and competent your character is. A great example here that everyone knows is Indiana Jones. Pay attention to Raiders Of The Lost Ark and you'll realize Indy never succeeds at anything. Even his successes turn into failures, such as when he obtains the golden idol only to lose it to Belloq. Later, he lets the Ark fall into enemy hands, and even when the enemy is defeated, it's not by Indy's doing. Finally, even the Ark is taken away to be stored in a classified facility. Despite (or perhaps even because of) all this, Indy is one of the most celebrated heroes in cinematic history. You know he damn well tried and he always made the best of bad situations, and the audience is happy because everything works out fine in the end. Watch Star Wars and you'll see the same sort of thing: Luke eventually wins, but he doesn't succeed at everything he tries on the way. Besides, it's just plain good storytelling (so long as your character doesn't fail by holding the Idiot Ball): it's a lot more interesting to watch a character prevail after a long, difficult struggle than to have him basically walk in and own the place.

Thoughts?

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