Would it be appropriate to post an example of a deconstruction? I am reading a fan-fic wherein the main character,(who has all the hallmarks of a stu) after two years living as a demigod in his fictional universe(and hating it) finally strips himself of his reality altering curse and begins his life anew. He than has to deal with the consequences of the mind altering effects his power had on the people around him.
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Removed the following:
"Not always a symptom of Bad Writing; a precious few intentional cases manage to either pull off Refuge in Audacity and/or exist to deconstruct the concept."
Because Mary Sues are always a bad thing. If they were well developed characters then they wouldn't be a Sue.
Edited by KSonik Hide / Show Replies
This is, in some ways, one of two exceptions (along with God-Mode Sue) to the "Sue is always bad" rule, since it's defined more in terms of having It's All About Me being true than most Sues.
Both are in the usual course of things a Mary Sue trope, but both have a path to sufficient Refuge in Audacity to not be symptoms of Bad Writing.
It's not just that, it's one of the two types of Sue who might be most interesting to deconstruct in some way. Actually, returning examples with a limitation to ones who are examples of deconstructions might solve the Too Many Examples issue mentioned below...
I'm going to agree with the removal as Black Hole Sue happens to have a counter which covers when this trope is well written.
Why does this entry appear in TV Tropes if there are to be "No examples, please."? What's the point of this page?
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Some tropes are not meant to have examples (pretty much the tropes that aren't really tropes, like definition pages or slang pages). Some simply are too flame-worthy and keep erupting into debates.
But one like this? I don't understand. Every other Mary Sue page has examples. This one seems pointless if it doesn't—if it cannot provide examples of where it appears, it is not a trope.
The article clearly states though, it isn't the troupe itself that is the problem, but how it happens to be used. If examples were to be given, only the bad kind would in fact pile up, which would lead people to question the claim that this troupe can actually be used well.
Then why does this trope exist as a subtrope of Mary Sue? If this is not an example of a type of Mary Sue, then it needs a rename (as well as a complete overhaul of the description).
Besides that, if no examples can be provided either way, it's not a valid trope. This isn't a description trope.
The article seems to say that occasionally the trope can be used intentionally for good effect—but that should be a different trope entirely. Most types of Sues have "good" versions—a Purity Sue to a Yamato Nadeshiko, the God-Mode Sue to The Ace, the Mary Tzu to The Chessmaster, a Sympathetic Sue to The Woobie, and so on.
Edited by helterskelter
I honestly don't understand why this is even being argued still. I can tell you very much that the Blackhole Sue is very much a Mary Sue trope. As for a trope needing examples to be concidered valid, I think you honestly need to look at this page... https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExampleSectionectomy
and this page... it clearly states that the examples were cut because the example section got bloated. And while this page does not list examples of the trope, you can actually find quite a few pages that say that a particular work is an example of this trope, so it isn't that there are no examples. They just aren't found on the main paige of said trope.
"so it isn't that there are no examples. They just aren't found on the main paige of said trope" — which is what makes it frustrating. people come to the trope pages to see the tropes — I don't understand why God-Mode Sue can have examples, but this can't.
Especially since, as you say, lots of pages refer to various characters being Black Hole Sues.
I *could* understand directing examples to YMMV, and possibly excluding fan-fiction examples.
(Addendum: This from the point of view of someone who was hoping to *browse* examples to see who other people thought were black hole sues — even though I expected to disagree part of the time, I thought it would be fun. I don't have anything I want to add, myself.)
Actually, one reason why I wanted to see examples was to try to figure out how a "Black Hole Sue" differed from an ordinary "Mary Sue".
In the 10 posts in this discussion, there isn't one who would actually be against examples (let alone providing a coherent explanation of why this is done). I'm just going to remove the disclaimer. When (and if) anyone who is on on this secret comes, they can put it back, *explaining* what their major malfunction is concerning examples. Thank, you.
Oh, there used to be examples in Troper Tales since those are covered by YMMV, but somebody decided to move them all.
Not related to Anonymous.
Right... so we shouldn't have any examples because someone deleted them from this whole other page that's on another wiki? *puzzled*
No, the examples in Troper Tales were removed since someone was trying to bypass the examples lock out by putting them there.
Well if this page doesn't deserve examples, why have it in the first place? It'll just provoke young, impressionable minds (mine, f.e.)
So, this is me posting as a reader of the site: the lack of examples on this page frustrates and infuriates me. Seriously, what is the fracking point.
The reason none of the Mary Sue pages have examples is because the site doesn't want flame wars. On one side we have people who don't understand what the term Mary Sue means and we have people who will label any character they dislike as a Mary Sue. On the other side we have people who don't like it when their favorite character is called out for being a Mary Sue despite the fact there is honestly nothing wrong with the Mary Sue.
@ Mob Rules - The "Black Hole Sue" doesn't differ from an ordinary "Mary Sue". It is one of the sub-tropes that a "Mary Sue" can be categorized as. It's kind of like genre. You have the "Sci-Fi" genre, and then you have sub genre like "Steam Punk", "Aliens", "Time Travel".
I was just curious if the phrase "new lieder" is a typo or if it was put there on purpose considering the quality usually attributed to Sue-fic.
All examples are not and will never be allowed for this trope.
For another, all example sections exist on probation only - the moment they cause problems like Natter, Edit Wars, or Flame Wars, they go. The Black Hole Sue all examples cause all three.
Therefore, we will not have them. Don not ask or nominate anyone.