Eater of Fun
Re: Mary Sue I think the trope needs to be listed, maybe even as a subversion. Kvothe seems to be an archetypical Mary Sue in that he picks up loads of skills very quickly and seems to be all good things (tough, intelligent, charming, etc.), but this is subverted by his flaws (recklessness, pride) and the hard knocks he takes (losing his family, etc.). I've put it back up for now, we'll see what edits come in and what you guys have to say about it - whether it needs to become a subversion rather than a YMMV or whether it needs to be chucked entirely...
My first discussion post! Yay! :)
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If Amazon reviews are any indication, Kvothe's Marty Stu-ness is an issue with quite a few people
But it is the first book, so the author may adjust the characterization or subvert it, who knows...
I thought that a Marty Stu was supposed to be an infallible self-insert, not a prodigy. Kvothe gets himself into plenty of trouble all on his own, and he has issues that even he points out and makes reference to.
He can't be a subverted Mary Sue. If he doesn't have what it takes to be a Mary Sue, then he's not a Mary Sue. Simple as that. Anyone who thinks otherwise is looking too closely at the letters and not enough at the spirit of what makes a Mary Sue.
Most Mary Sues are prodigies, true, but not every prodigy is a Mary Sue. Is the author afraid to depict Kvothe as fallible? Is he afraid to let Kvothe make mistakes? Do the laws of the universe bend out of their way to depict Kvothe as completely awesome? Do other characters spontaneously derail in their characterisation to highlight his brilliance? Do only negative characters dislike him?
No, none of that is the case. He has real flaws that have real consequences. His clever and awesome handling of his first whipping leaves him brain-addled at a critical moment later when the after-effects set in, thus denying him something he's dreamed of for ages (access to the Archives) and getting him on the bad side of an otherwise decent person (Professor Lorren). His stage upbringing causes a lapse of Wrong Genre Savvy with Elodin, and it's only by luck that he doesn't get killed by that. His background and lack of high-society upbringing as well as his refusal to back down cause him to underestimate the danger Alfonse poses to him and to keep responding to his antagonism, reading to ever escalating, real problems (including him getting expelled from the University in the next book). And all his intelligence and talent do nothing to shield him from the trauma of losing his family - in the aftermath, in Tarbean, he falls into poverty and life on the streets through his own personal bad (albeit understandable) decision to turn down that farmer's offer of hospitality.
Yes, at first glance, he does look a lot like a Mary Sue - uniquely red hair, green green eyes that sort of change colour according to mood, talent and intelligence. And all the girls want him. I'd say Patrick is keenly aware of this trope and deliberately set out to mock it a bit. (I see a lot of resemblances to Eragon, for one, such as discovering a True Name of something by accident - except that it actually makes sense here, in that it's precedented and normal in this universe for students to discover a True Name like that, as opposed to Eragon's "Brisingr!" coming completely out of the blue because he's oh so special.)
I applaud him for doing such a fine job of writing an amazing character who is NOT a Mary Sue, and don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise. It takes more than shine and glitter to make a Mary Sue.
Edited by Hekateras
I would like to contest the "Writers Cannot Do Math" in this one. I don't know if there's any diference in the different versions of the book but, in the one I hold in my hand, his answer to the triangle question was "Six feet and almost an inch.", to wich Brandeur answered, after a poderative hmpf, "Good enough...". Meaning, though Kvothe could not answer the question with precision, the master accepted the answer as satisfactory. (and I believe it's also well established that the author understands what the correct answer would be, or at least that it would need a bit more precision)
Mood Ring Eyes comments on how Kvothe's eyes change color. Bast's eyes change color. Bast is of The Fair Folk. Kvothe's mother is a runaway noblewoman from somewhere unspecified.it then tells us to "Connect the dots." If you actually connect the dots in the right way, you will figure out not that his mother is from the Fair Folk, but that she is a Lackless. There are many proofs for this, including the fact that Meluan Lackless, the Maer's sweetheart, looked familiar to him, and that her sister ran away with a Ruh man (which is why she hates the Ruh). Everything points to his mother being Lady Lackless, so someone might want to fix that. I am new on TV Tropes, and I don't really know how it it works, so sorry if I did this wrong. If you want more proof, I can gladly give it to you, but I'm sure if you look close enough, you can see them for yourself.
Has someone given thought to creating an entry for "The Kingkiller Chronicle" so there could be a shared character sheet (if someone wanted to write one up) or listing of setting-tropes that appear in each book? Sort of like the one for The Culture.
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Good news everyone! I created an entry for The Kingkiller Chronicle. Which means there's an additional discussion page on which we may safely ignore each other or where you may go to if this discussion page is momentarily in use by some other person's external monologue.
Is it really Heroic Fantasy rather than Low Fantasy? Perhaps it's just because only the first book is out so far, but the questing and heroism typical of Heroic Fantasy hasn't quite kicked in so much.
Someone added Lord Haliax under Complete Monster. I dare to question this. First, we don't know where the story will go with that guy. The only thing that is almost certain is that he's going to be the Big Bad. But for all we know, a Heel–Face Turn could still happen (hell, I admit that I don't think it's likely), so we will have to wait for at least the next book before we can say for sure. My main reason though is, that Haliax has a Freudian Excuse: Loosing his wife and therefore thinking all life is pointless and everybody would be better off dead.
Leaving it in for now, of course. Might be that I don't get this whole trope-thingy. New guy here ;)
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Does anyone even look at these discussion pages? ;) Well, somebody had a similar thought and deleted the entry. So, problem solved... for now
Why not just merge this with the series page and add a redirect? If we ain't gonna put the tropes here, do we really need a standalone page for just a description (which is or should be duplicated on the series page anyway)?
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