I just don't really think she pretends to be good or kind, she is kind and is one of the few people that does actually show Arya some degree of sympathy. Also Arya refuses to marry Gendry when he asks her and Sansa is terrified of being forced to marry Joffery and she marries Gendry out of desperation and as for marrying Arya to Renly, well look at all that happened when Arya returned from Dorne. Gendry and Robert were fighting over her and Sansa actually does find a young husband she thought would make Arya happy instead. For the letters, I don't have much of a defense since my memory is hazy, but isn't that after Sansa's son dies? Didn't she actually want the two boys to be friends at one point?
I just really think the wording comes off as Sansa forcing her way between them when it isn't really the case. Gendry is her husband, she is the victim in the affair and I don't understand how she makes herself out to be the victim when she actually is. Not to mention she does give them her blessing.
It comes off as Sansa forcing her way between them because that's how the story depicts her. Here are some quotes from the story that support this:
“Why do you care for Sansa's prospects? She certainly cared none for yours!” Arya recoiled, opening her mouth to curse him for daring to speak ill of her sister, when he rushed on, “I told her I wanted to marry you! I told her I was sorry but I could not wed her, and Sansa went directly to my mother and told her everything!”
“You are impossible! You did not want to wed Ned Dayne when he was a perfectly kind man, and now you do not want to wed Renly, whom I was certain you'd find pleasing! I would never have suggested it if I didn't!”
Arya froze. “You suggested this match? You?”
Sansa's hands fluttered nervously. “I simply thought...It was not my intention...” Turning her eyes on the seamstress, she ordered, “Leave us.” The moment the chamber door closed, the proper princess receded and Sansa Stark, Arya's only sister, returned. “I thought you would be attracted to him.”
“Why? When have I ever given you any indication I thought about Renly Baratheon at all?”
“Well, he is the spitting image of Gendry, and the Seven know how attracted you are to him.” Sansa got to her feet, pinning Arya in place with her gaze. “I am not stupid, Arya, despite what you and my husband seem to think. I have seen the way you look at him when you think no one is watching, and Gods know he cannot be in the same room as you without staring. All of court whispers about it.”
“Sansa - “
“He told me before we were ever wed he was in love with you, and Cersei assured me it would pass once I gave him an heir. Well, I have given him three daughters and been a loyal wife besides, and still he longs for you.”
“He wrote you letters after Brandon was born, and I stole them from the rookery like a common thief. I was so angry and jealous...” Meeting Arya's gaze, desperation shining in her wet eyes, Sansa admitted, “He wanted to claim Brandon as his son and have him fostered at Storm's End with Renly. I could hardly get him to speak to me, and there he was, writing pages upon pages to you, begging for the chance to be a father to your son, calling you his 'dearest love,' and I - “ Springing forward, clasping Arya's hands in hers, she pleaded, “Do not hate me. I was not well then, I was half-mad from grief and still furious over the affair, and I did not want to hurt your boy. I swear it the gods, old and new, Arya, I did not mean to hurt your son.”
“It took me a very long time to realize all the things I was angry at you for stealing away from me were never meant to be mine. If I had not interfered, if I had not let my ambition cloud my judgment, I suspect both of us would be living vastly different lives.”
Quickly knotting the ribbon around the sachet, Arya shook her head and declared, “I cannot use that. I cannot do that.”
“Why not? You've done it before; Brandon's proof enough of that.” Sansa turned, her face perfectly calm. “I'm not being selfless, Arya. This is not some grand sacrifice I'm making for you. It isn't about you at all.”
“Then why?”
“Because I loved him once, and he deserved better than me scheming with his mother behind his back.”
In the last one she even admits this is her doing. I'm not saying Sansa is evil or anything, but she is one of the antagonists of the earlier chapters, though she does develop a positive relationship with her sister later. Sure she has reasons. The beauty of this story is that even when we disagree with the actions of the characters, there is always a motive that makes sense. But that doesn't make the fact that Sansa forced Gendry into a marriage knowing he didn't want her, forced her sister into marriages she didn't want, and kept a man from his son anything but wrong.
So I still say the fits. Maybe we can reword it to specifically mention why she fits the trope with the examples or something.
Yeah, because the way it was worded was very negative and I rather like Sansa. Still not entirely positive I think she fits, but I'm not above compromise if it is explained well and doesn't come off as harsh as it was originally worded.
I honestly don't dislike Sansa. She's one of my favorites. I just thought the trope fit with the way the character was presented. I don't want this to seem like favoritism is guiding anyone's editing here. But I'm glad we can compromise. How about something like this:
- Bitch in Sheep's Clothing: While Sansa aspires to fill the role of Princess Classic and The High Queen, her manipulative side comes out whenever her dreams are threatened. For instance, when Prince Gendry tells her he doesn't wish to marry her and would rather wed her sister, Sansa schemes with his mother to make him marry her anyway. Also, when Arya returns to King's Landing after being widowed during the war, Sansa suggests marrying her off to Renly in order to keep her away from Gendry. Later, when Arya and Gendry have a son together, Sansa steals the letters he writes to Arya, asking for a place in Brandon's life.
I just wanted to discuss whether the trope Bitchin Sheeps Clothing should be added on the page in regards to the character of Sansa Stark. Here is how it appeared on the page:
"* Bitch in Sheep's Clothing: Sansa. Though she is seen as kind, respectable, and proper, she is the cause of many of the problems that befall Arya and herself through her manipulations in the earlier chapters. It doesn't help that she continues to make herself out to be the victim when, despite her schemes to separate Arya and Gendry, they continue to want each other."
I'm still confused about why this keeps getting removed when this fits the trope and is accurate as far as the story goes. Yes, Sansa isn't a complete villain, but she does pretend to be good, kind, and virtuous while also scheming with Cersei to force Gendry into marrying her (even though he tells her outright that he doesn't want to and that he wants to marry her sister), scheming to get Arya married to a man she does want as a means of separating them, and stealing Gendry's letters to Arya expressing his desire to be a father to their son. Maybe the trope can be more explicit on Sansa's scheming to be clear about why she fits this trope, but I just didn't want to give too much of the story away.
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