Discussion Characters / GameOfThronesHouseStarkChildren

I support this removal — and Jon was taught by a maester alongside the other Stark children so of course, he's going to be aware of this history just as every other Northern noble is. While I don't agree Jon is necessarily established as Book Dumb by the show and I think he has his moments of intelligence, I agree that the show version of his character doesn't meet the requirements of Genius Bruiser. In general, I think assessments of his intelligence on the show — due to disagreements exhibited in the editing history of this page — should perhaps be considered YMMV to avoid an Edit War because the adding/removal/adding/removal is becoming exhausting.

There's not a lot of YMMV...Adaptational Intelligence, Genius Bruiser, Book Dumb are not YMMV tropes.

Jon Snow is constantly presented in the show as an an action hero guy. He's not shown being smart. He shows surprise about Tyrion's book smarts, he has to be convinced by Sam to be allowed to go to the Citadel, when Book!Jon sent him right away...so that's not intelligent at all.

There is nothing to mark him as a Genius Bruiser. None of his actions show genius and all of it is undercut by the show. His plan to defeat Ramsay in the field in the Battle of Bastards fails, his diplomacy with Dany has him mostly deferring to Davos and Tyrion, the Cave Paintings part about the Children of the Forest is fake because of what Bran found out about the COTF.

So he isn't shown as being especially smart within the show...

I support the removal of the Genius Bruiser trope. I think Show!Jon is of average intelligence — not above or below the curve. In regard to the Tyrion example, Jon just asks him why he reads so much — which is a fair question, Tyrion does read a lot and he answers Jon, "What you see is a dwarf. If I'd been born a peasant they might've left me out in the woods to die. Alas, I was born a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Things are expected of me [...] I must do my part for the honor of my house, wouldn't you agree? But how? Well, my brother has his sword and I have my mind. And a mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone. That's why I read so much."

That makes perfect sense — this is Tyrion's focus and what he feels he can contribute. This doesn't say anything about Jon's intelligence but Tyrion's.

I am not arguing for the re-addition of Genius Bruiser and I agree with the Adaptational Intelligence example as written on the page. But I definitely think calling Jon 'dumb' is YMMV because it is an opinion, it is not stated by the show or those behind the show, and it is not representative of all views of this character. I think it's more an opinion, and that's fine. To my knowledge, his knowledge in his book studies or education is never commented on in the show as per Book Dumb's trope description. I think Show!Jon is just of average intelligence — not remarkable on either side of the spectrum.

Yes, in the show, Sam is the one to ask Jon to send him to the citadel but I don't see this as a comment on intelligence either way. It just is. Sam asks him and Jon says yes. In regard to Ramsay, Jon acts in a moment of sheer emotion and impulsiveness, definitely — which I think is understandable because it's his brother being threatened and murdered. But it doesn't mean he, as a whole, is dumb as impulsiveness does not equal stupid. It can result in dumbass decisions and the decision to charge was a poor choice borne out of terrible circumstances. Many characters on this show, as well as people, behave rashly after a tragedy.

I would certainly not argue Jon is adept in PR or political strategy — not all smart or average people are adept in those things. PR, political savvy, and diplomacy are skills, not a requirement of intelligence — Jon's arguments are still correct: the army of the dead is coming for everyone and they need resources or they're all screwed.

In regard to the authenticity of the cave paintings, I have no comment. The show doesn't say they're fake and I have no argument for or against. Bran and the viewer only know the true story because Bran witnesses it via powers Jon and the rest of Westeros do not have access to.

I just think he's an average guy — not nearly as smart as his book counterpart but not dumb either.

There's also Cast Speciation. In the books, Tyrion is exceptional for reading and knowing more than the average aristocrat. But in the show that is Flanderized into being one of the few who reads. Stannis in the show is also Book Dumb when in the books he was a pretty smart guy,

Yes, I can't argue that in the books, there are many characters who are well-read and Tyrion (and Sam) are shown as exceptional in this area. And I think you have a point as far as Cast Speciation goes, which I suspect is done to better distinguish characters from one another since mainstream viewers have a tough time keeping even show characters straight.

My only thing with Book Dumb is that the trope describes it as a character who is explicitly shown or stated to be struggling with book-related studies and, unless I'm misremembering something, we haven't seen an example of that with Jon or Stannis. They are more martially-inclined on the show, but it is not shown or mentioned that they struggle in their book studies — I don't think their skill-level with such studies is commented on. We've seen them both with some books and scrolls and doing some writing and reading every now and then, which is all we see of them in regard to books.

The closest example I've seen with a character struggling in their studies on the show is Arya in her needlework session under Septa Mordane during the first episode — and even that seemed more out of boredom and disinterest and had nothing to do with books :) But that's why I don't think Book Dumb is an entirely applicable trope based on the trope's description.

Fine. I'll stop putting Genius bruiser. But can I ask a question? Do you think he is smart? I keep putting it back because I think he is very intelligent.

I can appreciate how you feel, EO01163 :) However, I would caution you against repeatedly putting removed material back because that may result in an Edit War. If you haven't checked out that page yet, it offers suggestions on what to do if you find your contribution removed. For my part, I think Show!Jon is of average intelligence. I think he does have his smart moments alongside less-smart moments, and for me, he's squarely in the middle of the road but I feel this view of mine is subjective. If you want to continue a one-on-one discussion with me re: the character's intelligence, I think we should do it via PM so we can avoid cluttering up this thread :)

Show!Jon is not really defined by his intelligence. He is defined by his moral authority, his goodness, and his combat prowess.He is the man who does what is right, his ethos is Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right!.

In S2, when he is Qhorin's tagalong, he compromises the group and brings Wildlings to them, and Qhorin makes a best of a bad situation by making Jon a Mole. At the start of S2, at Craster's he gets the N-Watch thrown out when he gets caught spying on them.In S3, as "mole" for the Wildlings, he gets suspected and caught more than a few times...Now none of this is there in the books, where Book!Jon is indeed smarter, more capable, and more competent than the show version...but the Show!Jon is definitely less intelligent than the books.

His one big military battle, the battle of the bastards, was won by Sansa, LF, and the Vale and not him.

What is PM?

A PM is a private message :) You can find your message inbox by clicking your profile icon in the upper right-hand corner of the screen and going to 'Messages'.