Discussion Characters / BleachArrancars

Kubo stated in his online Q&A that — as far as he's concerned — Nel is the bustiest Bleach character.

Sorry... that was me. I thought that since the page didn't deal with just the Arrancars but the Hollows as well, the name should be changed to reflect that. I'm new to the page renaming thing, but you're right, I should have gone to the discussion page first. Sorry!

The definition of Dissociative Identity Disorder is "a mental disorder characterized by at least two distinct and relatively enduring identities or dissociated personality states that alternately control a person's behavior, and is accompanied by memory impairment for important information not explained by ordinary forgetfulness", although the last part is almost always omitted in pop-culture depictions of the disorder. The main support for the Split-Personality Takeover trope comes when Ichigo first Hollowfied against Byakuya: Ichigo and the Inner Hollow - which was presented as being a distinct personality that had seized control of Ichigo's body - bickered over who would be the one to finish the fight until Ichigo ripped the half-formed mask off and regained control of his body. As for why Ichigo's subsequent transformations weren't "cackling and sadistic", you'd have to ask Kubo. During the admittedly non-canon Runaway Zanpakuto filler arc when Ichigo fully Hollowfied, he stated "I won't let you (the Inner Hollow) have my body!" and the Inner Hollow was identified as being the one in control of the transformed Ichigo by the Old Man, making it Transformation of the Possessed and The Corruption. Furthermore, the Visored said Ichigo's Hollowfications were due to his Inner Hollow trying to seize control of his body, and that they themselves underwent the same ordeal. It's funny you should use the phrase "inner evil", as the laconic for Split-Personality Takeover is "A character succumbs to his/her dark side." In his "The Reason You Suck" Speech‎, Hollow Ichigo himself stated that he was trying to usurp Ichigo's control of his body because he had judged Ichigo to lack the fighting instinct needed to keep their body alive, and after being defeated that if Ichigo ever slipped up he would crush him and seize control again.

Also, it's never been shown in the manga that Hollows can turn other souls into Hollows - aside from White's Target Hollowfication, which was artificial - just that a soul will become a Hollow if its Chain of Fate corrodes completely or is broken off. In any case, Ichigo's Hollowfication isn't a case of Viral Transformation, as in order for it to be that he would have to possess the ability to transform others into Hollows, which he does not.

You shouldn't use Filler arcs as evidence; as you allready said, the Zanpakuto arc is non-canon and thus can't be used to support a cannonical discussion.

Also, do you remember Tensa Zangetsu's words to Ichigo? He specifically stated: "This is the form you [Ichigo] took when you defeated Ulquiorra Cifer." He DID NOT say: "This is the form your body took when the Hollow killed Ulquiorra Cifer." or anything like that.

In other words, it's Ichigo who was out of control and raging about, not some Hollow/split personailty taking over his body. The issue is that split personalities are still portrayed as distinct from the main character: that's not the case will Hollow Ichigo.

And the Inner Hollow is a reflection of Ichigo — or, rather, a caricature of Ichigo. His cockiness is just like Ichigo's. Look at his smiles. Listen to his taunts. Watch the way he fights. Ichigo talks and smiles and fights exactly like that whenever he's in the heat of a fight or has the upper hand. He does it against Renji, Byakuya, Grimmjow, heck, even when he beat up those random thugs in his and Chad's backstory. It's not Ichigo who acts like the "inner Hollow"; it's the other way around. The "Inner Hollow" acts like Ichigo. It's just not obvious at first because we're so used to seeing Ichigo's stoic frown, as opposed to the "Inner Hollow"'s constant smile.

Also recall Ouetsu's speech about zanpakuto: What is a zanpakuto? It's not your friend, your partner, your acquaintance, ally, enemy, teacher, partner, subordinate, ect. The zanpakuto IS YOU. It is literally you; it exists in your mind; only you see and interact with it. A more accurate metaphor for the zanpakuto is that the zanpakuto is a mirror: the mirror is a separate object but what you see reflected in that mirror is you and only you. Chapters 538-542 explained the entire thing. The ordeal is finally confirmed: Hollow Ichigo is Ichigo's zanpakuto spirit; he is a reflection of Ichigo manifested in his subconscious world and nothing more.

As for the incident with Byakuya, I'd rather label that as a retcon since it was relatively early in the manga and the Hollow is not portrayed as such after the Grimmjow incident. It has been stated several times in the manga that Hollowfication destroys the victim's sanity and personality. Hence why Ichigo's Hollow form grows increasingly aggressive and primitive. He goes from taunting Byakuya when he first transformed to being reduced to a dumb beast that can only speak in snarls, growls, and roars (with the occasional rambling) when transformed. It is not a Split-Personality Takeover; it's Sanity Slippage. Ichigo is losing his sanity when he transforms. A soul loses its sanity when it becomes a Hollow; it's not another entity or personality taking over. In Ichigo's case, it's caused by a spiritual virus that he inherited from his mother, and that virus is personified in his subconscious as a monochrome reflection of himself because it is Ichigo who becomes a Hollow, not the other way around. In other words, he's fighting to keep himself in control; he's fighting his darker urges; he's talking to himself when he speaks to either the old man or Hollow Ichigo; he's undergoing an extreme form of meditation. This is not Naruto; the Hollow IS NOT Kyuubi 2.0 trying to gain a body for itself like fans have been assuming for years.

The Hollow seems like a separate entity because Ichigo treated it like one. This is also a stage of what one goes through when confronting the Shadow: their denied/negative traits coalesce into a "demonic" presence in their subconscious which is said to "take control" in moments of extreme emotion or danger. Look at that: the "inner Hollow' does the exact same thing. In Chapter 542, Ichigo says: "Zangetsu... I will not ask you to lend me your strength, or get out of my way, nor to ally myself with you. From now on, I'll fight my own way... for you are me."

"For you are me." He outright says it in the text that both the old man and hollow are reflections of himself. Allying or fighting them is the same thing as fighting/allying with himself. For most of the series, Ichigo ran away from his fears. His mother was killed by a hollow, which traumatized him forever. He feared becoming a hollow. He feared it so much that he stubbornly refused to understand/accept the "Inner Hollow" was his Shadow; that he was denying an important part of who he was: the "evil"/"chaotic" part. The final step in conquering the Shadow is acceptance. It wasn't until he finally accepted both the old man and the Hollow (his Shadow) as reflections of his person that he could complete Zangetsu's reforging.

As for why Ichigo lost his memory in his second Hollow form, Hollowfication destroys the victim's memory and self-awareness as well. It stands to reason that Ichigo would not recall what he did as a complete Hollow and yet retained a little control/memory when only partly transformed.

It should also be noted that Kubo relies heavily on visual/textual symbolism to the point of Mind Screw when dealing with Zangetsu's (and, by proxy, Ichigo's) true nature. He's dropped several hints, but they're so subtle that you don't recognize/piece them together immediately, hence the dozens of Internet wars over the years of what the Hollow and the old man are. And now we know. Ouetsu said it. Ichigo said it. Heck, the old man himself said it in Chapter 541.

You shouldn't use Filler arcs as evidence; as you allready said, the Zanpakuto arc is non-canon and thus can't be used to support a cannonical discussion.

Also, do you remember Tensa Zangetsu's words to Ichigo? He specifically stated: "This is the form you [Ichigo] took when you defeated Ulquiorra Cifer." He DID NOT say: "This is the form your body took when the Hollow killed Ulquiorra Cifer." or anything like that.

In other words, it's Ichigo who was out of control and raging about, not some Hollow/split personailty taking over his body. The issue is that split personalities are still portrayed as distinct from the main character: that's not the case will Hollow Ichigo.

And the Inner Hollow is a reflection of Ichigo — or, rather, a caricature of Ichigo. His cockiness is just like Ichigo's. Look at his smiles. Listen to his taunts. Watch the way he fights. Ichigo talks and smiles and fights exactly like that whenever he's in the heat of a fight or has the upper hand. He does it against Renji, Byakuya, Grimmjow, heck, even when he beat up those random thugs in his and Chad's backstory. It's not Ichigo who acts like the "inner Hollow"; it's the other way around. The "Inner Hollow" acts like Ichigo. It's just not obvious at first because we're so used to seeing Ichigo's stoic frown, as opposed to the "Inner Hollow"'s constant smile.

Also recall Ouetsu's speech about zanpakuto: What is a zanpakuto? It's not your friend, your partner, your acquaintance, ally, enemy, teacher, partner, subordinate, ect. The zanpakuto IS YOU. It is literally you; it exists in your mind; only you see and interact with it. A more accurate metaphor for the zanpakuto is that the zanpakuto is a mirror: the mirror is a separate object but what you see reflected in that mirror is you and only you. Chapters 538-542 explained the entire thing. The ordeal is finally confirmed: Hollow Ichigo is Ichigo's zanpakuto spirit; he is a reflection of Ichigo manifested in his subconscious world and nothing more.

As for the incident with Byakuya, I'd rather label that as a retcon since it was relatively early in the manga and the Hollow is not portrayed as such after the Grimmjow incident. It has been stated several times in the manga that Hollowfication destroys the victim's sanity and personality. Hence why Ichigo's Hollow form grows increasingly aggressive and primitive. He goes from taunting Byakuya when he first transformed to being reduced to a dumb beast that can only speak in snarls, growls, and roars (with the occasional rambling) when transformed. It is not a Split-Personality Takeover; it's Sanity Slippage. Ichigo is losing his sanity when he transforms. A soul loses its sanity when it becomes a Hollow; it's not another entity or personality taking over. In Ichigo's case, it's caused by a spiritual virus that he inherited from his mother, and that virus is personified in his subconscious as a monochrome reflection of himself because it is Ichigo who becomes a Hollow, not the other way around. In other words, he's fighting to keep himself in control; he's fighting his darker urges; he's talking to himself when he speaks to either the old man or Hollow Ichigo; he's undergoing an extreme form of meditation. This is not Naruto; the Hollow IS NOT Kyuubi 2.0 trying to gain a body for itself like fans have been assuming for years.

The Hollow seems like a separate entity because Ichigo treated it like one. This is also a stage of what one goes through when confronting the Shadow: their denied/negative traits coalesce into a "demonic" presence in their subconscious which is said to "take control" in moments of extreme emotion or danger. Look at that: the "inner Hollow' does the exact same thing. In Chapter 542, Ichigo says: "Zangetsu... I will not ask you to lend me your strength, or get out of my way, nor to ally myself with you. From now on, I'll fight my own way... for you are me."

"For you are me." He outright says it in the text that both the old man and hollow are reflections of himself. Allying or fighting them is the same thing as fighting/allying with himself. For most of the series, Ichigo ran away from his fears. His mother was killed by a hollow, which traumatized him forever. He feared becoming a hollow. He feared it so much that he stubbornly refused to understand/accept the "Inner Hollow" was his Shadow; that he was denying an important part of who he was: the "evil"/"chaotic" part. The final step in conquering the Shadow is acceptance. It wasn't until he finally accepted both the old man and the Hollow (his Shadow) as reflections of his person that he could complete Zangetsu's reforging.

As for why Ichigo lost his memory in his second Hollow form, Hollowfication destroys the victim's memory and self-awareness as well. It stands to reason that Ichigo would not recall what he did as a complete Hollow and yet retained a little control/memory when only partly transformed.

It should also be noted that Kubo relies heavily on visual/textual symbolism to the point of Mind Screw when dealing with Zangetsu's (and, by proxy, Ichigo's) true nature. He's dropped several hints, but they're so subtle that you don't recognize/piece them together immediately, hence the dozens of Internet wars over the years of what the Hollow and the old man are. And now we know. Ouetsu said it. Ichigo said it. Heck, the old man himself said it in Chapter 541.

You shouldn't use Filler arcs as evidence; as you allready said, the Zanpakuto arc is non-canon and thus can't be used to support a cannonical discussion.

Also, do you remember Tensa Zangetsu's words to Ichigo? He specifically stated: "This is the form you [Ichigo] took when you defeated Ulquiorra Cifer." He DID NOT say: "This is the form your body took when the Hollow killed Ulquiorra Cifer." or anything like that.

In other words, it's Ichigo who was out of control and raging about, not some Hollow/split personailty taking over his body. The issue is that split personalities are still portrayed as distinct from the main character: that's not the case will Hollow Ichigo.

And the Inner Hollow is a reflection of Ichigo — or, rather, a caricature of Ichigo. His cockiness is just like Ichigo's. Look at his smiles. Listen to his taunts. Watch the way he fights. Ichigo talks and smiles and fights exactly like that whenever he's in the heat of a fight or has the upper hand. He does it against Renji, Byakuya, Grimmjow, heck, even when he beat up those random thugs in his and Chad's backstory. It's not Ichigo who acts like the "inner Hollow"; it's the other way around. The "Inner Hollow" acts like Ichigo. It's just not obvious at first because we're so used to seeing Ichigo's stoic frown, as opposed to the "Inner Hollow"'s constant smile.

Also recall Ouetsu's speech about zanpakuto: What is a zanpakuto? It's not your friend, your partner, your acquaintance, ally, enemy, teacher, partner, subordinate, ect. The zanpakuto IS YOU. It is literally you; it exists in your mind; only you see and interact with it. A more accurate metaphor for the zanpakuto is that the zanpakuto is a mirror: the mirror is a separate object but what you see reflected in that mirror is you and only you. Chapters 538-542 explained the entire thing. The ordeal is finally confirmed: Hollow Ichigo is Ichigo's zanpakuto spirit; he is a reflection of Ichigo manifested in his subconscious world and nothing more.

As for the incident with Byakuya, I'd rather label that as a retcon since it was relatively early in the manga and the Hollow is not portrayed as such after the Grimmjow incident. It has been stated several times in the manga that Hollowfication destroys the victim's sanity and personality. Hence why Ichigo's Hollow form grows increasingly aggressive and primitive. He goes from taunting Byakuya when he first transformed to being reduced to a dumb beast that can only speak in snarls, growls, and roars (with the occasional rambling) when transformed. It is not a Split-Personality Takeover; it's Sanity Slippage. Ichigo is losing his sanity when he transforms. A soul loses its sanity when it becomes a Hollow; it's not another entity or personality taking over. In Ichigo's case, it's caused by a spiritual virus that he inherited from his mother, and that virus is personified in his subconscious as a monochrome reflection of himself because it is Ichigo who becomes a Hollow, not the other way around. In other words, he's fighting to keep himself in control; he's fighting his darker urges; he's talking to himself when he speaks to either the old man or Hollow Ichigo; he's undergoing an extreme form of meditation. This is not Naruto; the Hollow IS NOT Kyuubi 2.0 trying to gain a body for itself like fans have been assuming for years.

The Hollow seems like a separate entity because Ichigo treated it like one. This is also a stage of what one goes through when confronting the Shadow: their denied/negative traits coalesce into a "demonic" presence in their subconscious which is said to "take control" in moments of extreme emotion or danger. Look at that: the "inner Hollow' does the exact same thing. In Chapter 542, Ichigo says: "Zangetsu... I will not ask you to lend me your strength, or get out of my way, nor to ally myself with you. From now on, I'll fight my own way... for you are me."

"For you are me." He outright says it in the text that both the old man and hollow are reflections of himself. Allying or fighting them is the same thing as fighting/allying with himself. For most of the series, Ichigo ran away from his fears. His mother was killed by a hollow, which traumatized him forever. He feared becoming a hollow. He feared it so much that he stubbornly refused to understand/accept the "Inner Hollow" was his Shadow; that he was denying an important part of who he was: the "evil"/"chaotic" part. The final step in conquering the Shadow is acceptance. It wasn't until he finally accepted both the old man and the Hollow (his Shadow) as reflections of his person that he could complete Zangetsu's reforging.

As for why Ichigo lost his memory in his second Hollow form, Hollowfication destroys the victim's memory and self-awareness as well. It stands to reason that Ichigo would not recall what he did as a complete Hollow and yet retained a little control/memory when only partly transformed.

It should also be noted that Kubo relies heavily on visual/textual symbolism to the point of Mind Screw when dealing with Zangetsu's (and, by proxy, Ichigo's) true nature. He's dropped several hints, but they're so subtle that you don't recognize/piece them together immediately, hence the dozens of Internet wars over the years of what the Hollow and the old man are. And now we know. Ouetsu said it. Ichigo said it. Heck, the old man himself said it in Chapter 541.

Oops, how do you delete your own messages?

Honestly, I can almost laugh. Aren't you the one who tried to make it seem that Tatsuki actively ships Ichigo with Orihime, and brought up the shipping wars with that link of yours?

To be perfectly, having Tatsuki become some kind of Mary Sue is THE LAST THING I would ever want, and it'd probably make me genuinely hate her character. You see, I HATE characters that are depicted as being perfect, and it really grates on my nerves when people try to depict characters as some kind of paragon of light that is untouchable by anyone else in the story. A character having negative traits fleshes them out in my opinion, and makes them seem more Human in my eyes, because no one can truly be perfect.

As for the shipping business, I've washed my hands of that aspect of the fandom. For all it is worth, it is too much trouble, and is also filled with the fans idealizing their characters as being perfect for each other in every way, which is another thing I do not like.

As for tropes, I delete them when the examples shown do not follow the definition of said trope. You can't just tack on a trope to a character unless the character's actions and behaviour makes the trope irrefutable, and it can't be argued against.

The last thing I want Tatsuki to be is some perfect Mary Sue character that can do no wrong. The fact that you think this is why I'm angry about how Kubo has treated her shows your own bias.

The Tear Jerker I deleted was something I myself typed out.

As for the rest, can you even name one moment where Tatsuki any significance as her own character, instead of acting as just some stepping stone for the development of other characters?

Kubo has given no indication that he has ever had anything meaningful planned for Tatsuki, and even goes as far as to diminish her character intentionally.

To top it off, tropes should only be applied to a character if the trope's definition matches with the actions, circumstances of existence, or behaviour that a character has shown in-manga. What is wrong with deleting tropes that don't truly apply to the character in question?

Sup saiyan5, lol