Shin Megami Tensei Series

Zelenin was always associated with Law, but she illogically became obsessed with the Law envisioned by God whole Zelenin the human was trying to help humanity.

Actually....what Yumil pointed out is probably why Alex and history has such an inhuman view of the Protagonist. To the point she thought Violence is the Only Option. Whereas him helping her made her realize he wasn't like that. Same for George coming to thst realization before Alex.

It could be they intended for the Protagonist to prioritize the mission so much he ended up no different mentally than the other factions

@Yumil specifically: Mainline plots are pretty minimalistic, but theyve been changing that since IV and IVA to a hit or miss for many. Even NINE had some character deiven motives for the Heroes of the script I read but thats Japanese only. IV and IVA have more PLOT going on even if some of it can feel like it takes awhile.

Devil Survivor and De Su 2 are probably more up your alley anyways.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 21st 2018 at 5:47:09 AM

Yeah zelenin becoming a law zealot once becoming a an angel, that I can dig - I expect that, and to some extent I admit Jimenez works even with my nitpicks - But what doesn't works is how she gets there.

Woooooooh, time, Shekinah down ! Oh boy, that was quite the marathon boss. Nailed that magic mirror for 2K damage in her face at the tipping point though.

Basically Zelenin sought order for humanity and as a scientist desired peace. Her obsession with God's Order and will as she became more illogical and then an Angel means that on Chaos she fully admits she just wants to destroy mankinds souls because that is God(Shekinahs) will.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 21st 2018 at 5:49:28 AM

Zelenin's order zealotry makes a whole lot of sense when you realize, given her apparent age and the near-future setting of the game, she was likely a child of immediately-post-Cold War Russia. Not exactly the most organized place, and caused many people in real life to embrace authoritarianism to get out.

and that's one ending watched. Can't say I'm surprised, but damn did it made today worth it.

Seeing how it's 3 AM in the morning tho, the other two routes will wait for tommorrow.

Edited by Yumil on Nov 21st 2018 at 3:00:01 PM

I remembered this so funny enough Yumil Jimenez dipping into just straight up evil happens if you reject Alex on Chaos. Where he outright is joyous over humanity exterminating itself in a World of Chaos for being weak.

And yeah, Reduxs script does have a lack of communication causing problems that could be solved if Alex just talked it out but her refusal to do so is the point. She could only hope for actual change when she starts realizing trying to kill the problem was not helping her and trusting the Protagonist. Which she does by the lowest levels of the Womb and the Route+ split.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 21st 2018 at 6:04:19 AM

Alright. I've found a demon that learns Resist Fire: Formorian, at level 9.

I'm pretty sure I caught one of those dudes, and if not, I can fuse him.

Now I just gotta find a way to fuse it with whatever I carry over Raphael's Stigmata Strike to, then grind it up to the right level.

Any suggestions?

yeah by the way, what was alex's plan to patch up things by herself if we hadn't survived our first encoutner with her ? She kills the three people who can get anything done in this team and ... let the schwarzwelt do its thing and bring the chaos ending ?

I've seen people note that it's stupid already in neutral but that's actually kinda dumb on all routes because what's the phase 2 of her plan since she will stop existing once she changes the future by killing us ?

The amount of poor communication kills is indeed astonishing. I think this game ends up reconstructing the warrior therapist trope by accident, showcasing how bad things turns out when you don't have one of those.

Alex actually points out at one point she never had the chance to talk with other humans before. Only George. Her lack of communication is a point, and as someone who fought to survive in all three timelines violence is the only meams she knows how.

And the idea is that she thinks if things get bad enough humanity might get its act together and history will change. Instead of the more obvious The End of the World as We Know It that would happen. As the sole remaining human in her time she didn't have anyone to teach her othewise. George goes along with whatever she wants too and only questions her when she doesn't act in a way he expects.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 21st 2018 at 6:19:45 AM

Don't use a Fomorian, trust me. Anything else the Ancient does will waste him, and the grinding will probably take weeks. I'd recommend doing what I did - find a way to get Resist/Null/Drain Fire onto Yggdrasil, then make a Raphael with that Yggdrasil.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Nov 21st 2018 at 8:23:22 AM

So instead of having a plan, a desperate girl running away from her apocalyptic timeline somehow travels into the past only to realize she doesn't have a plan to fix the situation until after she starts butchering the protag.

Eh, I can dig that. It certainly paints alex as more flawed than if she had a plan from the start with some kind of omniscient morality license attached with it and drawing parralels with a fix fic.

It also means demeter ends up being the biggest bullet ever shot in the foot of the entire schwarzwelt, which is perfect.

Edited by Yumil on Nov 21st 2018 at 3:27:55 PM

She likely travelled back with future tech.

I see Alex as basically a proactive Lucina from Fire Emblem. Both sought to avert the future but have no idea what they're doing, and its only when they trust others that the future they fear becomes averted. The biggest difference is Lucina irrational refusal to change things in a big way early on cause her, Naga, and Grima cant into Time Travel, and Alex trying to murder anything in her way in the hopes that will change it.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 21st 2018 at 6:42:57 AM

Well I wasn't planning to actually use Formorian. The plan was to continue to fuse it into something stronger (With Raphael being one of the choices, but not necessarily the only one I'd have gone with).

Plus, I already resummoned him my stock. But...If I can follow your plan with Yggdrasil, I'll try that.

Edit: So...I don't actually know how to make Yggdrasil. I have him in my stock, but I apparently never fused him before or something. Anyway, I don't know what demons create him, so I can't figure out how to get the Fire Resistance I want onto him.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 21st 2018 at 8:29:57 AM

Alright, that's law+ and chaos + watched.

While chaos just overall works and it's extremely satisfying to see jimenez realize something he should have never lost sight of, I actually think the one that works the most is law + : Zelenin remains unwavering in the face of the genocide she will cause, but she starts faltering when alex begs her to save her, because it plays exactly on the same traits masteam played to break her : Zelenin doesn't believe in law as much as she want to save people and avoid bloodshed. It's perfectly natural that she rejects her god if you present her a future where she can save not only more people, but save them herelf. the fact she couldn't bear to remain on the sidelines powerless was the catalyst for her transformation, and it's the catalyst for her turning back to face.

That's actually the smartest bit of writing of strange journey as a whole bar absolutely nothing. I still prefer Jimenez's world to zelenin's one on ideological grounds, but his face turn doesn't click with the same force it does for zelenin. Which at the same time is funny but makes sense : it's the opposite of their initial transformation , where jimenez's one makes sense but not zelenin's, but jimenez's transformation was a result of independant circumstances that didn't had mych weight for him as a character, while zelenin's was entirely character based.

You know what, just for how good this moment was, i'm this close to take back everything I said about zelenin in my previous post because as dumpb of a setup it might be, it's way too satisfying a payoff to turn down.

But I would like it even more if I didn't had to make so many objections before.

I'd never do any of those endings because I just can't for the life of me suscribe in any capacity to the choice you need to make to reach that point, but the story breaks itself over the knee to build itself backup better than before - that's deeply flawed, but in an endearing way, kinda like Xenoblade X is deeply flawed but infinitely more endearing to me than xenoblade 2 who doesn't have the same kind of flaw.

To continue the metaphor, while neutral doesn't literally break itself in half before putting itself back to work, it kinda makes it to the finish line limping and gasping for an end. Becoming doom guy is staisfying, but not as much as seeing jimenez or zelenin get the redemption they deserved.

You know what, it's a pretty damn good epilogue to that journey, as strange as it was.

Okay no need to show me the vanishing point I know where it is.

Edited by Yumil on Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:16:51 AM

Becoming Doom Guy is, in a way, more of a tragedy for Space Marine than anything. He gets remembered as an inhuman monster on normal Neutral despite saving the world, and in Neutral+ he lives with having to struggle with retaining his humanity, because the moment he loses it, He'll be a threat that surpasses even the Schazrwaltz!

Even Lucifer warns him to never forget, and he uses the Ring of baby Alex and Louisa to cling on to it through eternity.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:17:57 AM

Yeah but I like that, because I'm a massive sucker for a story that has the balls to have that premise and to answer confidently "Yes, he'll retain his humanity". I think that's my definition of the ideal hero. And redux lets it up to you to decide how he deals with that struggle, so I'm fairly happy to be given support to imagine joker become doomguy whil retaining his humanity and wearing that fact like a badge of pride.

Phew. So in the process of searching for a demon that could learn resist fire (which resulted in me re-summoning Formorian with the intention of chain fusing it into something that could become Yggdrasil)...I made a Yggdrasil...that learned Drain Fire.

Lets just say one of the demons in my power had it on him. Go figure.

So all I gotta do is get rid of my current Raphael so I can refuse him with Drain Fire, then re-level him (and Uriel as well). Beyond that, he'll have all the same attacks.

I'm just trying to figure out how I should make the room. Fuse him to something else (though the options are all demons I have already but it's still good potential chance to have more demons with Stigmata Strike) or just delete him (which feels like a waste honestly).

Probably said this before, but I'd quite like to see a game that pulls a Not Me This Time with YHVH.

I'm pretty sure that even if they did that, then he'd end up hijacking the plot later on so he could still be the villain.

Sj does exactly that in Redux. Just with a different aspect of God.

And there you go.

Also, fuse my old Raphael into something else so I can make the new one, or just delete it?

I don't like deleting. It seems so cruel. I vote fuse.

I guess, but the fusion options aren't too interesting.

The strongest one I can get is a Lakshmi...which I already have...though I guess this one will be better.

Whelp whatever. I'll get to it tomorrow.

Double post:

Fused my old Raphael into a Lakshmi, then fused a new Raphael with Drain Fire, along with a new Uriel.

While I was levelling them back up, Uriel got the option to learn Luster Candy, which I jumped on, due to feeling it would be useful. So now I got demons who Drain, Repel, or Null Fire, Stigmata Strike, Luster Candy for buffing and Debilitate for de-buffing.

...he's still an asshole. The first few times, I was missing on my first turn, even though I was using Flynn, who's maxed out at 99. The most recent time, I wore him down to the halfway point where kwazy Kiyoharu comes out, and started using Stigmata Strike more often, but he was still giving me a hard time even then.

Phew. He's the hardest boss in the game for a reason isn't he? This will take a while. I don't know what else to do now...though I suppose I can level up the rest of the team I'm using to 99...if that will even help. Right now, they are all 93, except for the fully maxed out Flynn.

Masakado's Shadow is even harder due to his BS almighty attack that exploits weaknesses.

Edited by CybranGeneralSturm on Nov 23rd 2018 at 12:23:35 PM