Ensemble Darkhorse: How minor does one have to be to qualify?

Ensemble Dark Horse

I've noticed that many examples on this page are characters who play a significant role in the story, often with the existence of character who's more important but less popular mentioned. I understand that the 'popularity' aspect of this trope is subjective and therefore difficult to pin down, but surely the 'minor character' aspect isn't, really?

I'm basically asking if I should delete the examples of the form I mentioned or let them stay. I would've just deleted them, but I don't really feel comfortable making major subtractions to a page without have some kind of general approval backing me up, so I made this thread. Thoughts?

For what's its worth, Boba Fett is often given as an example of the (non-flanderised) trope is about - someone who doesn't do much yet get inexplicably popular. But yeah, gauging how "minor" someone is can be quite the headache.

I personally don't see a problem with it. Even if a character is fairly major, but by FAR overshadows more important characters in popularity, I can still see it as a trope. As long as it clear that the character is not the Protagonist or Antagonist.

Where the issue gets muddled is when you are dealing with something that has no clear one person protagonist. Or when the protagonists are an entire group. Take the X-Men.

No one would make a case that Wolverine is not, by far, the most popular of the X-Men. But... The X Men are a group. A group he is a member of. Sure, he's not the leader. But he is an important member of the group. Does Wolverine really count?

Wasn't Wolverine originally a minor Hulk villain or something, though?

The way I see it if there is a title charecter and one of the side charecters (minor or major) beats the crap out of them in popularity then it counts. IE Baka Test 's Hideyoshi.

edited 5th Oct '10 5:56:04 AM by Raso

Well, the specific characters that I saw that prompted in thread were not actually the primary antagonists, but they were the ones doing most of the active villainy while the Big Bad (who the fanbase largely seems to hate) was going through an Orcus on His Throne phase for a while. That's doesn't fit my personal definition of the trope, and I was wondering if that was just me being crazy or what.

I think anyone who's an equal member of a group counts. They could be an irrelevant background character or one of several side characters, or even a main character in a story that divides its attention equally. As long as they're not the leader or the protagonist or in another narrative position of notability (primary love interest, rival, whatever).

The Dragon counts as a primary villain because they occupy a unique ranking, so they wouldn't qualify. One of three equal villains would qualify even if they are collectively the primary antagonists.

The point isn't that the character is minor in an absolute sense, just that they stand out from their peers in a way the narrative itself doesn't support.

"I think anyone who's an equal member of a group counts."

that is certainly what the trope name (and the description) seems to imply. however, it's not that clear cut. what do you do when you don't have an ensemble cast, or when the ensemble comprises Loads And Loads Of Characters but they don't share airtime equally? not to mention, "minor" is a very, very vague description. can they have lines? must they be completely disentangled from the plot? how minor is minor?

the way i've been using the trope... well, with live-action and movies it's easier: if they're not billed as main cast, they count. any supporting character, no matter how much screentime they have, should in theory not surpass the main cast in popularity; when they do, they absolutely fit in this trope.

sir leon in Merlin, for example, had few lines but was distinctive from other random knights even back when he first appeared, but he's definitely a darkhorse because rupert young is not credited as part of the main cast in the opening sequence, yet he still had the fans crying tears of pure sorrow when it seemed like he died in season 2. good god, he's getting shipped with main characters, for crying out loud.

in media where we can't use the cast list's paychecks as a measuring scale, it's a lot more subjective. i would try to use the same definition, if they're not main cast but become more popular than the main cast, they count as Ensemble Darkhorses, no matter how much screentime they get.

this is why luna lovegood is a darkhorse for Harry Potter, even if she's one of the Nakama (but HP has very clear main characters: harry, ron and hermione... and voldemort is the Big Bad). similarly, any number of other characters could count, like snape or the weasley twins. luna's just the most noticeable case out of all of them.

in Bleach, you have one protagonist (ichigo) and one Big Bad (aizen). whether the rest of ichigo's Nakama count as main characters is debatable (i would count them, although i'm not sure about chad), but everybody else is clearly not a main character. therefore, toushirou hitsugaya counts because being part of the supporting cast, he's managed to beat the protagonist and the other nakama in popularity polls.

going with that, i would only count The Dragon as an Ensemble Dark Horse if he/she isn't part of the main cast. for example, The Dragon in Kim Possible (shego) cannot be a darkhorse because she's part of the main cast. The Dragon in The Real Adventures Of Jonny Quest (julia or the zin twins, for example) would count as darkhorses if they were more popular among the fandom than the quest team (they're not, but they were the first "minor" dragons that came to mind). it should work on a case-by-case basis. heck, sometimes even Love Interests can count, if the work doesn't focus on the romantic subplot enough to give that guy/girl "main character" status.

edited 9th Oct '10 3:53:02 PM by carla