Severe Misuse: Violation Of Common Sense

If anyone cares, rocket jumping could not possible work in real life, because either an explosion either a) doesn't have enough force to move you, or b) does have enough force to move you, and hence would, at minimum, break your ankles if it tried to move you by your feet.

But, anyway, rocket jumping wouldn't count anyway, because that was an accidental discovery by players, and by the time any game was _requiring_ people to rocket jump, everyone knew about it. (Hence it was 'common sense'.) Now it's an accepted part of Video Game Physics for certain genres.

However, I'd draw the line for this trope harsher than that 'land mine' example. Stepping on a land mine does, indeed, physically propel you into the air. The physics are goofy but possible.

A lot of people are saying 'stupid idea' and 'terrible idea' and I said 'crazy idea' earlier, and while all of those cover it, those terms also cover other things.

This trope is more 'nonsensical ideas'. Not ideas that would be 'bad', per se...more ideas that a random number generator appears to have come up with.

But I don't know, maybe it should include things that 'could possibly, in theory, work, but would certainly be not worth it'. I was just trying to make it less subjective, and that area does get a bit subjective.

Perhaps it should have two parts: 'Things that cannot work', and 'Things that can work, but would be a very very bad way to solve the problem', with each example in the first part listing the specific rules of physics or human nature (People actually have eyes, and do not think it is night when the sun is shining) the solution violations, and each in the second part listing what would actually happen if you did that (You would blow your own feet off.)

In other words, videogame logic != real-world logic. How is that not a violation of common sense?

Yes, the physics of a landmine propelling you over an Insurmountable Waist-High Fence work out correctly. It's the physics of a landmine propelling you over said fence alive and capable of walking that make no bloody real-life sense.

It is a violation of common sense in the everyday meaning. But if we define the trope to include rocket jumping, then Violation of Common Sense is so broad as to show up in every moment of every game. It's People Sit On Chairs in the form of Computer Games Are Not Real Life.

| But if we define the trope to include rocket jumping, then Violation Of Common Sense is so broad as to show up in every moment of every game.

Well, I don't know. I was thinking of this trope as only including things that weren't normal parts of a genre (And hence impossible to figure out.), but there could be a section listing where Violations Of Common Sense have become acceptable parts of various genres. Many of which are already tropes, so we can just link to them.

That gives four sections, which obviously need pithier names:

Individual games with solutions to puzzles that are impossible or at least utterly implausible: Tricking people into thinking it's night with owls

Individual games with solutions to puzzles that are a really bad idea: Hypothetical land-mine jumping

Genre conventions that are impossible: Carrying around anvils

Genre conventions that are a really bad idea: Rocket jumping or jumping down 50 feet into six inches of water

To distinguish 'impossible or implausibly' and 'really bad idea', we need to make it clear that the 'really bad idea' has a reasonable chance of working in some sense. It's entirely possible that a well-aimed step on a landmine could get you over a fence. It just has a rather bad side effect of not having legs afterward, unless you have amazing luck.

Whereas the impossible ones just wouldn't work, or require some really really amazing luck, to work, _at all_.

I was really trying to limit this to things player's _wouldn't try_ because they don't make any sense, though, so 'genre accepted ideas' would not be part of it. But if people think this trope should be wider, I'm fine with it.

How's this, then. Same basic definitions, but phrased differently:

• Press X to Die: Punishes you for doing something stupid.
• Stupidity Is the Only Option: Requires you to do something stupid.
• Violation of Common Sense: Rewards you for doing something stupid.

Most of the examples currently on the page (the ones that don't obviously belong on Press X to Die or Stupidity Is the Only Option, anyway) seem to fit this definition.

edited 10th Nov '10 8:35:39 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I would take that one. It's nice and straightforward.

Video Game Census. Please contribute.

I am completely for that distinction.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

No, I don't think that's it at all. How about:

• Press X to Die: Punishes you for doing something stupid.
• Stupidity Is the Only Option: Requires you to do something stupid.
• Violation of Common Sense: Requires you to do something nonsensical.

'reward' vs. 'require' aren't the distinction.

It is 'stupid' to charge unarmed into battle and get caught, and if a game requires that, it is Stupidity Is the Only Option.

It is 'stupid' to try to disguise yourself as someone without a mustache by wearing mustache, and if a game requires it, that is Violation of Common Sense.

But they're different kinds of 'stupid'. One is doing something that is a bad idea, the other is just insane. The second is less a 'bad idea' than 'not actually a conceivable solution at all'.

And there's other distinctions, too. Stupidity Is the Only Option is almost always an attempt to railroad a plot. It's But Thou Must!, for something obviously not a good idea.

Whereas a Violation of Common Sense is usually just a single puzzle with a solution that...is not a solution. A solution that cannot solve the problem. (Or, possibly, a solution that could solve that problem, but would cause other, larger problems to happen, like not having legs anymore.)

I can't think of any Violation of Common Sense that happen at the macrolevel for the plot, like Stupidity Is the Only Option usually is.

'reward' vs. 'require' aren't the distinction.

It's not your distinction, but I don't like your distinction because I think it's too vague, too subjective, and already covered by Moon Logic Puzzle. So I'm proposing a different one. Can you explain why you think yours is better, instead of just saying that mine is not yours?

edited 10th Nov '10 10:00:13 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Bad distinction. There are a lot of examples of Violation of Common Sense that aren't required at all. Most shooters that fit the trope can be won other more sensible ways. The fact that it works is a reward. Not a requirement.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

...is that mustache by any chance made out of cat hair?

edited 10th Nov '10 10:28:13 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

| It's not your distinction, but I don't like your distinction because I think it's too vague, too subjective, and already covered by Moon Logic Puzzle.

I think it's already been explained why this isn't Moon Logic Puzzle.

To quote Moon Logic Puzzle: 'To find the solution, you have to look at the problem in a way that may seem entirely unintuitive on its face. This is not a Guide Dang It; all the information you need to complete your objective is right there in the source.'

Again to the mustache example: That example does not fit under Moon Logic Puzzle, It is not an 'uninuitive' answer, it is a _wrong_ answer.

And it does not fit under Stupidity Is the Only Option, which is when the game forces you to act like a moron, thanks to the plot, and then bad things happen.

Which I really think a lot of people are missing about Stupidity Is the Only Option, and hence don't understand why this trope is different. Stupidity Is the Only Option is when the game makes you Press X to Die, it makes you do a stupid thing, but it _moves the plot forward_. Your 'choice' is, in the game, treated as 'a stupid thing you did'. Stupidity Is the Only Option is not when the game makes you do something illogical that is treated as _logical_ by the game itself. There is no such trope except this one.

And it's not subjective at all, or at least it wouldn't be if I had my wish. Other people seem to want to include 'things that would solve the problem but create worse ones', which I don't really like, and I'm fine with ditching it. But 'requiring players to use solutions that would not solve the problems facing them, and pretending that did solve the problem' is not subjective.

| Can you explain why you think yours is better, instead of just saying that mine is not yours?

If you can do something stupid, and the game lets you and it turns out sometimes you can benefit from it, that's The Dev Team Thinks of Everything.

Or, sometimes, Good Bad Bugs, if the dev team didn't mean them to exist. Or Ascended Glitch, where it changes from one to another.

FYI, I really think this discussion needs to stop using the word 'stupid'. It means way too many things, there are multiple reasons that an idea might be stupid. Unlocking a car cutting the door off by punching the window with your fist is a different sort of stupid than unlocking a car by sticking an icepick in the tire, because one of those might conceivably work, and the other is totally illogical.

Edited for paragraphs.

edited 10th Nov '10 11:07:08 AM by DavidTC

I like Native Jovian's version better. It's a lot more clear-cut. The line between "stupid" and "insane" is too fuzzy to create a clear separation here.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

My basic problem with your defintion of Violation of Common Sense is that it's The Same But More for Stupidity Is the Only Option. "It's when the game forces you to do something stupid, but it's so stupid that it literally doesn't make any sense at all and the game just pretends that it does." That does not a good trope make, and the difference between merely "stupid" and truly "nonsensical" is rather subjective, as demonstrated by our conversation on rocket jumping. Alternatively (I can't really tell), your definition is The Same But More Specific in that Stupidity Is the Only Option, but instead of having unavoidable consequences (eg, the game forces you to wear a crappy disguise and you get caught because of it), the game just pretends that your actions weren't stupid (eg, the game forces you to wear a crappy disguise, but it works perfectly). I'm not even sure which definition you're proposing (both at once? either/or?), but I don't like either of them.

So I say screw it and start from scratch. When you do something stupid (which includes both "might work, but ultimately a bad idea" things and "completely nonsensical, could not ever possibly work" things): if you're punished for it, it's Press X to Die; if you're forced to do it, it's Stupidity Is the Only Option; if you're rewarded for it, it's Violation of Common Sense. Simple, clear, concise.

edited 10th Nov '10 11:35:10 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Okay, I see what you're saying, and I don't think it's actually that far off from what I'm saying, I just think the phrasing is vague. I think you're right in that approaching it from how the game treats it makes more sense.

if you're allowed to do something stupid and punished for it, it's Press X To Die;

if you're forced to do something stupid by the game's plot, but it's treated as stupid _in_ the game, it's Stupidity Is The Only Option;

if you're forced to do something stupid by the game's plot, and it's treated as a useful solution, it's Violation Of Common Sense.

The trope, meanwhile, can be divided into sections, like 'stupid because there's almost no chance of it working', 'stupid because it would cause other problems which the game pretends it doesn't', and 'stupid because someone failed science forever' and even 'downright nonsensical'

edited 10th Nov '10 12:36:55 PM by DavidTC

The problem there is that you're still treating Violation of Common Sense as a subtrope of Stupidity Is the Only Option, which I don't think is right. Why should it be? If you do it that way, then nothing covers "optional stupidity that results in a reward".

I'm torn over whether Press X to Die, Stupidity Is the Only Option, and Violation of Common Sense should be mutually exclusive, though. Should Stupidity Is the Only Option cover all forced stupidity (regardless of outcome) and so Press X to Die only covers optional punished stupidity and Violation of Common Sense only covers optional rewarded stupidity, or should Press X to Die cover any punished stupidity (regardless of whether it's forced or not), Stupidity Is the Only Option cover all forced stupidity (regardless of outcome), and Violation of Common Sense cover any rewarded stupidity (forced or not)? In the former, each example would only be in one of the three tropes, and in the latter anything in Stupidity Is the Only Option would also be in either Press X to Die or Violation of Common Sense.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

| The problem there is that you're still treating Violation Of Common Sense as a subtrope of Stupidity Is The Only Option, which I don't think is right.

No, I'm not trying to, I'm with you, I think. None of these are subtropes of each other.

| I'm torn over whether Press X To Die, Stupidity Is The Only Option, and Violation Of Common Sense should be mutually exclusive, though.

They should, although special mention should be made for games that normally have something that is Press X to Die, but at one part of the game you're actually supposed to do it, which is Stupidity Is the Only Option if it harms you (But the plot moves forward), or Violation of Common Sense if it somehow doesn't hurt you.

| Should Stupidity Is The Only Option cover all forced stupidity (regardless of outcome) and so Press X To Die only covers optional punished stupidity and Violation Of Common Sense only covers optional rewarded stupidity, or should Press X To Die cover any punished stupidity (regardless of whether it's forced or not), Stupidity Is The Only Option cover all forced stupidity (regardless of outcome), and Violation Of Common Sense cover any rewarded stupidity (forced or not)?

That's confusing to read, but amazingly, I think neither. Here's how I'm seeing it:

Press X to Die: Optional, harmful (The name actually implies 'fatal', but I think technically it doesn't require it.)

Stupidity Is the Only Option: Required, harmful (But players do it anyway, cause that's the only way forward. Oddly enough, this can actually be fatal, like the ending of the original Fallout 3, where you have to sacrifice yourself despite other people being better suited to the task.)

Violation of Common Sense: Optional or required, but strangely not harmful although common sense says it would be. (Or at least, strangely not useless although common senses says they would be)

Press X to Die: You have a cyanide pill on you the whole game which you can choose to take. It kills you.

Stupidity Is the Only Option: The game is based on Buffy and you've got a prophecy that you're going to die and so you are forced to take the pill hoping that Willow can bring you back with magic afterwards. The game will not progress until you take the damn pill. You do, and come back to life, complete with wangst about it.

Violation of Common Sense: The game is MGS, you end up having to take the cyanide pill to fool people into thinking you're dead but really secretly you have a "revival pill" that brings you back even though your vital signs are nil or nearly nil, and you have no harmful effects from doing all this chemical alteration. Also nanobots. You the player are thinking "...?" but the game says "Well done, good job, that makes perfect sense!" Whereas in the Buffy example, the game is saying "Yeah, this is pretty risky, and it'll hurt like hell, but it's the only way."

...on second thought I don't like this set of examples. Let's try:

Press X to Die: You can stab yourself with your sword by typing "attack thyself"

Stupidity Is the Only Option: You have to explore the deep dark dungeon everyone warned you away from with only a rusty sword for company because that's what the game is about and you can't begin the game until you agree to do the stupid thing.

Violation of Common Sense: To get into said castle, you have to stand on your head and shout "BANANA!" in front of the guard. This causes him to laugh, and he points out that he's not laughed in years, sure, you go ahead on inside funny man. To which you the player go "...lolwut? Seriously?"

edited 11th Nov '10 12:13:46 AM by Yamikuronue

BTW, I'm a chick.

Let's all have a go:

Press X to Die: Optional, harmful in every way, provides no benefits at all.

Stupidity Is the Only Option: Required, some harmful effects, but the only way to progress so actually helpful in the long run. I'm not sure if this has to be *actual* harm (say, lose all your weapons) or if it's enough to just have *informed* harm (a cutscene where you get beaten up, but no in-game effects), but that's another discussion.

Violation of Common Sense: Something that you could not have predicted would work, given all other knowledge about the game. The distinction from Moon Logic Puzzle is that looking back after finishing a Moon Logic Puzzle you say "that's warped, but I can see the logic" but after a Violation of Common Sense you say "that STILL doesn't make any sense".

Okay, how about this for a clear example: You are on the run from the police. You need a piece of evidence. You walk in the police station front door:

Press X to Die: They arrest you. Game over.

Stupidity Is the Only Option: They arrest you. An interrogation and two cutscreens later, while being transferred, you break out of the police car and are on the run again, with some more information.

Violation of Common Sense: You walk in, go to the evidence room, pick up the evidence, and walk out, despite the police being on a massive manhunt for you, and the fact that police stations obviously don't hand random people evidence or even let random people near the evidence room. Which most people know, but apparently not the game designer.

The first two have the same realistic consequence...but one is part of the plot, and the other is not and ends the game. The last is something that really shouldn't have worked, but somehow did with no problems.

It's not a Violation of Common Sense if the game addresses the fact something should be a problem. If you walk into the police station and it turns into Pacman where you have to dodge police officers in corridors, distract the guard, pick a lock, get to the evidence, and then get out, that's not any of these tropes. That's just normal adventure game problem solving.

And, rhebus, Stupidity Is the Only Option doesn't have to affect your actual stats. Often in RP Gs and adventure games it steals all your stuff, but it certainly doesn't have to. In fact, you often end up better off...maybe you were taught to pick locks in prison, and that's how you're supposed to learn that.

Let's see..

You find your goal on the other side of a rapid river with many rocks sticking out of the current. (In other words you'd be stupid to try to cross it on your own strength.

Press X to Die: There is a bridge thirty feet away. If you decide to wade across, you die.

Stupidity Is the Only Option: There is no way to get across the river besides trying to wade across. When you do, you get swept away by the current and have to be saved by another character, who gives you important plot information while you recover from the near death experience.

Violation of Common Sense: You try to wade across. The river deposits you at a secret entrance that allows you to skip past a lot of guards and go straight to your goal.

Video Game Census. Please contribute.

I think we're all basically on the same page for this now. Should we go ahead and start making edits and sorting examples?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I don't think that's quite right, arks. Just because a game 'rewards' you for a stupid thing doesn't mean it's a Violation of Common Sense. Strictly speaking, all Stupidity Is the Only Option 'reward' you, because that moved the plot forward.

Being swept away by the river is a sane response to getting in it. What happens next can make it Press X to Die or Stupidity Is the Only Option, but as long as the game acknowledged 'Boy, that was a dumb thing to do' (Regardless of the ultimate result), it's not a Violation of Common Sense.

A Violation of Common Sense requires the game itself to apparently not to know it's a stupid thing. The game must not follow 'common sense'.

In your example, a Violation of Common Sense would just be if the game lets you walk across the raging river, because, apparently, that's possible in the programmer's universe.

EDIT: Yeah, I think we all are on the same page, mostly. Now to figure out how to actually explain it. ;)

edited 11th Nov '10 10:58:17 AM by DavidTC

No, his example is good. Common sense tells you that if you try to wade across a dangerous river, it will end badly. If you wade across a dangerous river and something good happens instead, that's a Violation of Common Sense. If they say "wow, that was a dumb thing to do", then that's just a lampshade.

edited 11th Nov '10 11:02:00 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Well, whatever, it's not important. That hypothetical is more an easter egg than anything else, as are a lot of any optional Violations Of Common Sense.

I'm reminded of in ADVENT, where you can defeat a dragon with your bare hands for no apparent reason, which is pretty clearly a joke.

Anyway, I think we've figured out all the hypotheticals we can, and now should actually work on the page description to actually come up with something useful. First we need a concise way to distinguish the three 'results of dumb things to do in games' tropes we've been talking about.

There an obviously harmful thing to do, and the game says:

Press X to Die: That is a dumb thing to do, and if you do it I will kill you.

Stupidity Is the Only Option: That is a dumb thing to do, but it is needed for the plot, so just do it and we'll continue.

Violation of Common Sense: Good idea! You figured it out!