The Wheel of Time

Around here? I think we know what kind.

edited 5th May '09 4:11:43 PM by Nornagest

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.

Won't argue with you there, but one Skitty does not a label make...or something like that. Clearly there is more of this going on than we know for such a kiss to be called a "brother's kiss". Also, that's Min's POV, so I'm not sure I want to know what went on around her when she was growing up.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Yes, Min is my favorite as well. And I think Mat told Birgitte and Aviendha overhears it somehow and calling the Supergirls on it is a joint effort. It's definitely a Crowning Moment for Mat, however it's way too late (4 books or so) for the girls to regain any points, especially since they had been no less pricky to Mat (or any other character for that matter) until this moment.

As for the rest of the cast, I really like Moraine. She may be a Manipulative Bastard but she has a damn good motivation for it. Of course, soon after she begins to treat the others as equals she is Put on a Bus. Same goes for Siuan Sanche, who has more character development in a single book then the Supergirls over the course of the whole series.

And I think Faile receives so much hate not because of their Slap-Slap-Kiss relationship but her kidnapping later is largely responsible for Perrin's worst moments of Character Derailment.

I don't think the kidnapping derailed Perrin's character so much as the plot. It got to the point where two book's worth of Perrin chapters could have been cut and no one would have notice the difference. (Excuse me while I indulge in pointless hyperbole, by the way.)

Let me think about about my favorite and least favorite characters...

Favorites (in no particular order):

• Mat (after having his spirit saved from the dagger)
• Min
• Moraine
• Verin
• Bayle Domon
• Logain
• Rhuarc
• Berelain
• Loial
• The elder Bornhald
• Suian Sanche
• Slayer
• Cadsuane

Least Favorites (again, no particular order):

• The Supergirls
• Faile
• Alanna
• Morgase
• Aram
• Anyone who ever trusted Pedan Fain
• Elaida

(Yes, holding the Idiot Ball seems to be quite the theme for this list)

edited 6th May '09 1:14:34 AM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Verin.

Yes, I'm talking about Verin.

She's fairly smart but keeps it mostly under the radar, and she's always *really* circumspect (in the POV's we get) about her loyalties and what her agenda is. But she figured out Compulsion on her own and used it to great effect, and throughout the series she always knows more than she lets on.

She's also by far the least bitchy Aes Sedai.

edited 6th May '09 6:18:11 AM by Arilou

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent

Verin is especially interesting in a way that her allegiances are a complete mystery. Like Taim, turned up to 11. Also her defining The Chessmaster qualities.

Speaking of which, I noticed again that there is no really interesting villain in the series. Well, one can argue about Padan Fain and Taim, and Ishamael at least gets rid of most Idiot Balls after he turns out to be Not Quite Dead. But the rest of the Forsaken are just one big combined What An Idiot moment.

Verin is definitely one of the better characters. She can be very manipulative without anyone else even knowing.

I think at least part of the Idiot Ball the Forsaken are carrying is thematic, in a sense. Remember that these are not all the original Chosen, just those who happened to be caught and survive the war. Also, there seems to be a theme that "only losers sell their souls" in a sense: All of them had something they wanted desperately, so desperately that it overrode their reason.

Except Ishamael, who did so for purely philosophical reasons, and is quite mad.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent

Yeah. There's something wrong when the most interesting villain in the series is a pretty standard psycho ex-girlfriend (with phenomenal cosmic powers).

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.

If I had to pick one character as my favorite, I'd probably pick Verin. Just saying...

I think Ishy is the most interesting of the Forsaken, but that's more because of his back story than anything he actually does in the present. Lanfear definitely had the best "on-screen" presence. The others...well, some of them had their little quirks that were interesting the first time I read about them, but they just didn't have the personality to carry things beyond that.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

I dunno, I think the Dark One is kind of an interesting villain itself, if only because it's so outrageously powerful it's hard to fathom the concept of actually fighting it. It's already demonstrated the ability to break the transitive property of logic. How on earth do you contend with something that can do that? I think that Jordan wrote a better Cosmic Horror than he did human antagonists.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.

Desertopa: When did the Dark One do that(the logic thingy)? I can not remember.

"You can not grasp the true form of the Dark One's attack!"

edited 6th May '09 1:35:53 PM by Galeros

When he brought Moghedien in for chastisement, and she was following Shaidar Haran through that tunnel, and had to crawl on her hands and knees to make it under the low ceiling, while Shaidar Haran, who is much taller than she is, was able to walk with a wide berth. The transitive principle, in this case, if ceiling is taller than Shaidar Haran, and Shaidar Haran is taller than Moghedien, then ceiling is taller than Moghedien, was completely flouted, just so the Dark One could let her know he was pissed off.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.

Jordan's actually reasonably effective as a horror writer — the Black Wind scared the heck out of me when I was a young teenager reading these books, and it's still fairly creepy now. Likewise for the Shadar Logeth (sp?) sequences, and there are other instances scattered throughout. But they're not emphasized, and the fairly lame and ineffectual human villains are played up as the bigger threat, to the detriment of the series.

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.

Desertopa: Ohh yeah, I remember now!

Nornagest: Yeah, Shadar Logoth was pretty creepy. It reminded me of Silent Hill. I do think that Padan Fain is a pretty interesting villain. One thing I found interesting was a comment made by a character about how it would be even worse if Rand has been taken over by Mordeth than if the Dark One had turned Rand evil. It really speaks to how bad Mordeth was.

The whole idea of Mordeth running around and spreading mistrust, paranoia and hatred by his mere presence like a plague which multiplies exponentially really qualifies as Nightmare Fuel.

And Lanfear ... it's just sad. She had so much Chessmaster potential, even more so then Ishy as she wanted to get rid of the Dark One as much as of the Aes Sedai and yet all her Xanatos Gambits blow up in her face due to her fixation on Rand/Lews Therin. Well, it could be worse... like Be'lal Killed Off for Real by the Obi Wan, that's really pathetic.

Edit: I completely forgot about Semirhage. Manipulating the Seanchan to the invasion, then plunging them into chaos when Tuon disappears and blasting Rand's hand off. That deserves a tip of the hat. Demandred is also a unknown variable at this point as is Mesaana, so there is still some hope left.

edited 6th May '09 3:23:11 PM by Ana

I don't remember Aviendha calling them on it. the scene I'm thinking of was in Ebou Dar, and went something like this:

->Birgitte: You know, I just had a chat with Mat, and you should really thank him for helping you out in the Stone of Tear.
Elayne: Now wait a minute, we had the Black Ajah right where we wanted her, and we could totally have taken Be'lal!
Birgitte: Wait a minute, the Black Ajah and a Forsaken were there? Wow, you guys were really in over your heads.

I like Birgitte; she'd like a female Toblerone at times, and that makes her awesome. It's also fun when she comes out with something like "Oh yeah, I remember this happened once during the Trolloc Wars and...uh, let's just leave it at that."

I'm also a big fan of Cadsuane and Sorilea. They're a pair of tough old ladies who know how the world really works and won't let you push them around, sonny.

Logain is pretty cool, in spite of what little screentime he's gotten. It's just a shame we haven't gotten to see him interacting with Taim.

Speaking of Taim, he and Alviarin are easily my favourite villains of the series. If I wrote fanfic, I'd totally ship them.

I've already mentioned my liking of Perrin, but Elyas is also cool. Mentor, wolfbrother, and former Warder combine into a pretty nice package.

Nthing the dislike of Nynaeve. Honestly, what does Lan see in her?

I don't dislike Elayne per se, despite her being a haughty bitch in later books. However, her subplot was fairly dull and pointless after taking the Lion Throne, which I guess just means that Jordan doesn't write politics very well.

Aviendha...OK, she has a major superiority complex, but I still like her. She's feisty or something.

Ukrainian Red Cross

I am pretty sure that Aviendha also told Elayne and Nynavae to apologize to Mat. But I could be wrong.

I also like Cadsuane, I like how even Lews Therin is afraid of her.

I like Nynavae, I do not see why she likes Lan so much. Yeah, I know he is a great warrior and all. He just seems kind of bland to me.

edited 6th May '09 7:17:14 PM by Galeros

Both did together. Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 for anyone who wants to read it. Also shamelessly mocked in the parody summary:

edited 7th May '09 12:45:03 AM by Ana

I've read through the series twice. I had to give up the third time by book 10 because Discworld had made me too addicted to more lighthearted Fantasy, but The Wheel Of Time still stands as one of my favourite literary series. My favourite book is the third, The Dragon Reborn.

edited 7th May '09 12:14:59 PM by Lemurian

Join us in our quest to play all RPG video games! Moving on to disc 2 of Grandia!

I am a little over 100 pages into Book Nine. It is slow going, but it is getting interesting again.

edited 30th May '09 1:43:20 PM by Galeros

I picked up A Knife of Dreams earlier this week. I've about 100 pages in, and, well...wow!

Galad getting a CMoA? Byar and Bornhald not being completely worthless? In my WoT? I'm delightfully surprised.

edited 30th May '09 2:09:21 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Sometimes I wish someone who defy one of Min's visions and be awesome while doing it. Like say have some guy who is fated to die by fighting against an army of Trollocs survive by tearing his way through them and just NOT getting killed.

Next book.

Sex, Drugs, and Rationality

So, I finished Knife of Dreams a little while ago. It was pretty good.