Replace the Bastard / Bitch pair of gendered counterparts?

Hi neo YT Pism (and Mimimurlough),

Thank you for asking what I meant instead of getting angry/sarcastic/rude/whatever. I appreciate it.

Taking a closer look... Ouch, that five-lines-long-sentence really sucked! My apologies for being unclear. What I meant was...

1. I don't agree with systematically replacing "bitch" with "bastard", but I don't really care either: To me and many others they are equally bad. There are also many who consider one of the words to be worse then the other: Some consider "bastard" to be the worse word, some consider "bitch".
2. Bastard works fine for male and gender neutral, but there are cases where we need to differentiate between male and female.
3. I think "Manipulative Bitch" is negative and can be very hurtful. Same goes for "Manipulative Bastard", but hey. I'm sure there are many cases where it doesn't hurt (or even can be an improvement) to change a Manipulative Bitch pothole into a Manipulative Bastard pothole.
4. Magnificent Bitch and Magnificent Bastard is a bit different. Their existence can make it less hurtful to be called a bitch or bastard. So we really should keep this one as it is!
5. So, if you want to change a bunch of bitch potholes to bastard potholes, my suggestion is that you go for changing the Manipulative Bitch potholes into Manipulative Bastard potholes.

There. Hopefully clearer, although a bit long-winded instead. :-)

edited 8th Nov '10 3:08:19 AM by Xzenu

my two cents: i'm not a native speaker, but i'd regard them just about the same in intensity. bitch has lost most of its derogatory qualities as is, nowadays it's mostly used as a batch of honor or expressing a certain snappy attitude (or for emphasis).

on the other hand, South Park and other such comedies have made the word bastard an everyday ocurrence, at least in my corner of the world where english is not our native language and we mostly depend on youtube. it can still an insult, but it's used a lot to mean "evil but cool," almost admiringly, much like bitch. i really don't think either is more insulting than the other, but again, it all depends on the context.

true, "bastard" in its original meaning was gender-neutral. however, i've never heard the slang meaning being used as gender-neutral. it's always used for men, as far as i know. and does anyone really think when reading these trope names that we're talking about the original meaning of the word as opposed to the slang meaning?

i don't know how tightly our hands are tied by The Situation, but not taking that into account, i would just leave the b-words as they are, and gender-separate.

My two cents as a native speaker: "Bitch" has definitely not lost its derogatory value, and the various X Bastard tropes are not using it in a reclamatory fashion. Furthermore, it's pointless to say that it's okay if not being applied to actual people. It's not somehow not-racist to use racial slurs if you're applying them to fictional characters; the situation is no different here.

And the whole original-meaning thing was somebody's argument that "bastard" wasn't gender-neutral, IIRC; people brought up that it applied to both sexes in response to that, not as a standalone argument. As I've said, I view "bastard" as about as gendered as "you guys" — slightly, but not completely.

Bitch is hardly restrained to those two connotations @ Mimimurlough

There is also the key connotation of "cruel bitch" (often a generic complaint about rejection, but has more understandable uses in the context of cruel pranks like the Prank Date) or the connotation of the Manipulative Bitch who toys with the feelings of guys to get what she wants, etc... a variety of contexts and it would not be restrained to two. Bastard is simpler; literally it means born out of wedlock, and figuratively, it means an unpleasant person.

Added a link to this thread in Abusively Sexy Bitch, proclaiming that I will change the main title to Abusively Sexy Woman by sunday if people don't object. I don't feel we need any crowner about this one, especially since the trope is only a week or so old.

Bitch and woman are not synonymous. Bitch is being used as the couterpart to Bastard because Bastard may be nominally non-gendered, but it is in general use applied much more to men than to women. There is no consensus to change anything in this thread.

I've made a crowner.

I've never found "Bitch" to be that offensive unless you don't like being compared to a dog in heat... That's what a bitch is, a female dog, usually in the midst of it's reproductive cycle. Bastard usually only hits close to home if the person really did grow up without a father.

Wait, wait, wait!

We can't change "Magnificent Bitch" to "Magnificent Woman". That would not work at all: A "magnificent man" or "magnificent woman" is something very different from a "Magnificent Bastard" or "Magnificent Bitch".

The only trope I'm talking about renaming from bitch to woman is Abusively Sexy Bitch to Abusively Sexy Woman. That one does not need any b-word because it already have "abusively" in it an that is IMHO enough.

Edit: Added crowner for the above suggested change.

edited 8th Nov '10 4:02:38 PM by Xzenu

Make a thread for that specific change, then. If that's the only pair you were talking about changing, it shouldn't be hiding in a general question thread like this.

edited 8th Nov '10 4:05:31 PM by Madrugada

Awright, I'll make a separete thread and hope it doesn't annoy anyone.

Edit: I created it as per request, but Bobby locked it asking me to take it in this thread instead. So, can we just stick to the crowner in this thread?

edited 8th Nov '10 4:29:56 PM by Xzenu

Seriously, even if we need a Distaff Counterpart to bastard, I am not exactly convinced that bitch is the only option here. I think exploring other options may be worthwhile. o.o

neo YT Pism,

Yeah, that's why I thought when I started this thread. Like I said, I don't mind the b-word myself. But if people don't like it, then just look for a better optiona nd maybe we'll find one?

I've unlocked the other thread and explained why you made it.

I don't understand the crowner. It seems like A) eat apples, B) juggle oranges. Why am I an idiot?

Ignore the crowner. I've unhooked it.

Does this thread need to stay open, since there's one for Abusively Sexy Bitch now?

There's a very clear differentiation and genderedness about the two words in my mind. I keep wanting to chime in but words fail me as to describing it. When I have more time later today I'll give it a shot though.

Off the top of my head, Chandler from Friends is a "bastard XD", he's a bastard because he's sarcastically cruel to his friends but in a funny way and doesn't mean it, so in this sense bastard is more playful or admiring than insulting, and I see our Magnificent Bastard trope being similar.

edited 9th Nov '10 2:48:26 AM by Yamikuronue