Neon Genesis Evangelion

Same here. To me at least, Tsundere pairings work mainly if the male partner is able to match up to the females temper and the like. Shinji is just too passive for it to work out, imo. Plus I'm not quite sure exactly how Asuka's violent behavior is supposed to help Shinji come out of his shell, as wouldn't that just lead to the opposite? Plus, she herself has issues like Rei does.

Speaking of which, I still take issue with the Anno's decision to completely paint Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22 in the worst light possible. What was he supposed to do? Just let Rei die? Talk about heartless. Plus, I fail to see why giving up your own life to save another person is the wrong thing to do. Countless people have laid down their lives to save their loved ones after all. Shinji saying the consequences to the world didn't matter also I feel was a heat-of-the-moment statement. You won't exactly be thinking about that when in the middle of an intense situation.

This is the part where I come in and extol the superiority of Kawoshin. (Humor Mode)

He was able to do so early on, and did it again before the whole debacle with Leliel.

As for your other point. Yes, Shinji should have left Rei to die if saving her meant that other people would die. One thing is to save your loved ones, another is to prioritize your loved ones when the lives of countless people, who are also the loved ones of others, are on the line.

Runs into the same problem as Shinji/Rei in my opinion.

Edited by raziel365 on Jan 13th 2019 at 10:42:34 AM

Kaworu does try to encourage Shinji to actually be better for him own sake, the problem is that Shinji tends to ignore. Especially in 3.0 where he encoursged him to try new things and try to see beyond the stagnancy Shinji desires.

Of course being Shinji he tends to ignore it and not try to go beyond by himself. Only doing it when Kaworu or someone else makes him try. All Take and No Give.

Also a number of those people who would have died were also his loved ones too. So he'd end up causing the deaths of people he cares for to ssve one.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 13th 2019 at 11:13:38 AM

I think you guys are kind've missing the essential meta elements that are neccesary to make any sense of the Rebuilds. The significance of Rei being given saved was that she was the most popular Eva girl in Japan. In the heat of the moment, the choice isn't a clear "save one person, destroy the world." The choice is between escapism and reality. Shinji saving Rei destroying the world is a direct call out to the Japanese audience ruining Japan with their escapism. At least that's what Anno thinks, if you've read what he think should of the current generation of otaku. It's the Alan Moore effect, but bigger, Eva is like Watchmen if Watchmen ruined not just the superhero comic industry but all of American culture.

Though if I explained this poorly I apologize.

Wow, where have I seen that one before. *cough* Hide *cough* Kaneki *cough*

(I still love you Kaneki)

Edited by SilverWinds on Jan 13th 2019 at 2:07:44 PM

So thats what Kaneki and Hide reminded me of!

And tbh Kanekis change near the end of Re felt so unrealistic because of the Happy Ending it lead to it leaving me unsatisfied the same way a lot of people were for 3.0. Even though I personally still continue to love 3.0.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 13th 2019 at 11:11:17 AM

I already explained why it was a problem - because Shinji was, in that moment, all-powerful, and didn't believe that he and the world could and should survive alongside Rei. That's the problem with trying to help people without loving yourself - it twists far too easily into a desire for martyrdom rather than something that will actually help them.

Um... I'd like to point out one thing I've read on this very site years ago. Confronting one's issues and/or source of trauma is not necessarily the only right thing to do. If someone remains functional by not thinking about their problems but you force them to in the name of "you have a problem, you gotta solve it or else you're never gonna be happy", you might indeed end up with them getting over it... but you might also very well end up driving them to suicide by tearing open those wounds, just because you didn't like the way they were healing on their own. And indeed, people have died in real life from their psychologist/psychiatrist militantly jumping up and down on their pain in the name of "PROBLEM, MUST SOLVE".

People's mental problems are not mathematical equations that can be solved just like that. "Everyone can deal with their issues if they truly want to" is bullshit. Some people simply do not have the mental fortitude to do it. There's a reason the human brain's first option to dealing with trauma is simply not thinking about it. You don't need to look any further than Anno himself: after the massive depression around Eva, he got a grip, got married and was living happily with his wife, but working on Rebuild tore open the old wounds and he fell into depression again. He didn't shrug it off, he relapsed. That's what happens if you don't let the matter rest.

Also, you guys are putting far too much weight into what Anno says and/or believes. His opinion is his own, not what we're obligated to believe ourselves.

Edited by amitakartok on Jan 14th 2019 at 10:34:06 AM

Boy, Anno really doesn't think highly of the otaku culture, or at least, those that like Rei. Course, he has no problem with those who like Asuka though.

You know, there's a potentially interesting theme in 2.22's ending in terms of "the needs of the many vs the needs of those closest to you." Yes, Shinji wouldn't have endangered the lives of people had he just killed Rei along with Zeruel and be done with it, but at the same time, again, Rei is one of his closest friends, maybe even more. Had he just done the former, I highly doubt it would've done much to help his already low self-worth. When you have the opportunity to save someone, you take it. But because Anno can only see things in complete black and white, or goes full on one-sided, without stopping to think about both sides of the equation.

Honestly, I feel I wouldn't have had a problem with the direction Anno decided to take with it had he been more balanced in the approach. Maybe have some people die, but not to the extent seen in 3.33. Have some be understanding of Shinji's plight, while others condemn him for it. Even have Rei be saved after all, but Shinji and the others don't know that, and maybe even have Rei lose all of her memories despite being the same person. Then, things would be more ambiguous and up to the audience to figure out for themselves.

But no. Because Anno has so little faith in the intelligence of the audience, and only wants them to see it the way he thinks is correct, he goes full bore in terms of one side that he thinks is correct, and paints Shinji's actions as completely inexcusable without bothering to look at the other side of the equation. He is so fixated on making sure the audience "gets it" that subtlety and nuance goes straight out the window.

Personally, I feel that Puella Magi Madoka Magica The Movie: Rebellion tackled the same themes in a much more subdued, balanced, and much less mean-spirited manner.

Edited by LDragon2 on Jan 14th 2019 at 1:50:21 AM

Not to mention that Tomino was doing the same shit with Gundam back in the day.

Using Tomino of all things as a similar example. Considering how much the basically Nazis that is Zeon is beloved in Japan and people try to whitewash them while potraying those big mean Feddies as worse, sometimes you gotta accept subtetly and nuance does not work.

South Park even said it nicely not even a few seasons back. Subtlety is dead. You have to be obvious with the intent.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 14th 2019 at 1:51:10 AM

That's basically just the equivalent of Rooting for the Empire, which is a tradition not just restricted to Gundam. Heck, the Empire in Star Wars are also considered space Nazis, and look how many fans they have.

And really, I feel that one shouldn't underestimate the intelligence of the audience when it comes to making stories like Gundam, Eva, or Madoka, as they aren't meant to be simple mindless blockbusters. And life is filled with dillemas that can't simply be solved with one end-all-be-all answer. Balance and subtlety is key, and I don't think Anno himself quite understands this.

Edited by LDragon2 on Jan 14th 2019 at 1:54:24 AM

Yeah because the Misaimed Fandom chose to interpret the story in the wrong way. Which is why they come to such conclusions. At least part of it is just Evil Is Cool rather than legitimate belief in their philosphies.

Its all a mixed bag based on the situation. Sometimes fans when given leeway come to the worst and most aweful conclusions nobody on it thought of. Or unless the director spells it out since nobody really thought about it.

And then there's those who try to directly confront the fandom based on theories that don't matter or things like subverting expectations simply for the sake of subverting it, like The Last Jedi. Which was more concerned with just screwing over the fans and their theories than actually continuing a story that could reasonably continue from where the previous director left off. Which naturally had people poke constant holes in it.

I actually know a game that was extremely subtle about the mother of a character and if it weren't for datamining outright confirming it people would think otherwise to this day. Heck there's random people Ive seen who don't know about that and never realize, and if it weren't for that data there would be long drawn out arguments about it. Much less the father who doesn't even have datamining and is even more subtle about who it is.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 14th 2019 at 2:07:24 AM

If he doesn't, the team working under him does. The stories he ends up putting out are always more interesting than he says he intends in ways he doesn't say he was intending to approach.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Jan 14th 2019 at 5:04:17 AM

True, but Anno ultimately has the final say in pretty much everything he does, so regardless of the team's talent, he's the one who puts the final stamp on the product. And really, he seems to dislike it when people find meanings that he didn't want or intend, as seen with Rei.

There must be some sort of balance. Works like Madoka Rebellion, the Nier series, the works of Anno's friend Ikuhara, The Matrix 1, much of Stanley Kubrick's works, and countless works of literature have all managed to find a balancing act between what the creator intends to be told, and at the same time, allowing leeway for the audience to come to their own conclusions. Heck, some creators even encourage the viewer to find their own meaning in their work, which is why people like Ikuhara refuse to really come open about what they think the ultimate message is.

Anno however, perhaps because of his struggles with depression, can't really seem to find that balancing act. He believes that the audience must come to the same conclusions as him, as he may believe that what worked and spoke to him and what he believes in is the ultimate message that all viewers should abide by, as then they too can overcome the same struggles he went through. People aren't so simplistic though. What works for one and what appeals to one may not be the same for someone else who is also going through issues in their lives, and I don't know if Anno realizes this.

Yoko Taro gets all his darker stuff out with other series and the side materials, considering what Kaine did to people and the things she'd do after killing Shades. Essentially he kept all he super fucked up stuff in side materials. Plus things like the Fairy Tails moba he has and Drakengard where he lets out all his edge and Black Comedy out while he expresses his melancholy theough Nier. He admitted he was actually tired of his making only tragic endings before Automata came out for example. Which you can see with how the game ended.

Instead all the permanent tragedy is in the side quests and backstory!

That said I agree what Anno wants isn't feasible, but sometimes a person needs to make clear their stance even when others disagree with it. Especially as thats how it worked for him.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 14th 2019 at 2:20:22 AM

It wasn't needs of the many versus needs of the few. It was Shinji achieving temporary godhood and deciding, through bitterness, self-loathing, and depression-induced Lack of Empathy that someone still needed to suffer. Compare and contrast with Asuka, who cements herself as the real hero of 3.0 by demonstrating the proper way to save a Yui clone in the movie's finale.

Man, as if Anno's blatant creator favoritism wasn't already apparent, he goes and makes Asuka the most correct, unfallible, perfect heroine. Because Shinji choosing to save Rei means that he knowingly decided to let everyone else suffer. I'm still baffled by Anno's decision here (aside from trying to make everyone turn on the chracters he dislikes like Rei while propping up the ones he wants the audience to like).

Why couldn't him saving Rei simply be him wanting someone else to be saved? Heck, the entire reason Rei ended up being absorbed by Zeruel was because of his decision to run away and leave the entire situation up to her and Mari, so people were already suffering because of his lack of action and self-loathing. But now this is what he must be punished for? Not running away and at the very least trying to save someone even if he didn't care what happened to himself or the others while, again, in the middle of an intense and violent situation? He wasn't even displaying a total Lack of Empathy, as it was seeing what happened to Rei as a result of his refusal to pilot that made him want to go back and save her.

It all just feels incredibly muddled, almost that Anno himself didn't plan on the consequences happening until midway through production. And given all the rewrites that happened during 3.0's development, that may have been the case. No wonder he ended up depressed again.

Kazutaka Kodaka called out Otaku Culture much better and much more directly in Dangan Ronpa V3.

Art the same time, I feel like The main reason has disdain for Anno's messages is Rei fanboyism, even if that's exactly the point and is what Anno wants from him.

Its Damned If You Do Damned If You Dont, really.

Because Shinji is a representation of Anno's own experiences with depression. That is the whole point of the story, dealing with and finding an escape route from depression. Shinji is severely mentally ill, and his illness is warping his perspective and worldview. None of his choices work out because the way he acts on them is shaped by his underlying self-hatred - he's playing a rigged game, and the answer to that is not to find the optimal strategy within that game, but to play something different.

Affection is also not the same as empathy - Shinji wants to save Rei because he likes her, but doesn't ever check with her on whether and how she wants to be saved, any more than he checks with Kaworu about whether retrieving the spears will make him happy. As a result, Rei ends up completely safe, entombed within the living fortress that is EVA-01, and completely devoid of agency. Asuka, on the other hand, asks what Rei Q wants and does her level best to help her with it in a way that ends with both of them alive and free.

Edited by Iaculus on Jan 14th 2019 at 12:18:58 PM

Not to mention that Rei explicitly asked not to be saved at the end of 2.22.

Also, I don't see how Asuka can be the infallible heroine when it was her refusal to explain things to Shinji in Terminal Dogma that lead to Fourth Impact as much as Shinji closing his ears.

Yeah Asuka and Kaworu aren't without faults just like Rei.

I don't recall her explicitly asking for Shinji to just let her die. She basically just seemed resigned to her situation, and simply said that it's okay, since she'll just be replaced. It's not that she didn't want to be saved, it's just that she had zero hope that it could be done. Which I thought made Shinji's decision to go for it all the more powerful. Sort of showing how even she deserved a chance at life.

Rebuild 4.0 will reveal everything is a "Truman Show" Plot, and makes the whole franchise pointless by Anno out of Spite.

Eh, I'd prefer it if he decided to go all MGS 2 if the series does go for a more meta ending.