Better title: Press X To Jason

There seems to be a clear consensus to rename. Should we move on to picking the new name yet?

This thread is nearly a year old.

Yes? And?

Are you saying we should have a new crowner for "a new generation," as it were, in case the whims of what constitutes a good name or not have changed in the intervening time?

edited 19th May '11 5:30:00 PM by Leaper

Part of the problem is that we never really did anything with it. Can we finally get around to the alt titles part?

Let's see, all the suggested renames...

Press X To Holler
Holler Button
Push A For Ambient Action
Press X To Shout
Press X To Speak
Press X To Call
Press X For Atmosphere
Press X To Do Nothing
Press X To Do Nothing Meaningful
This Button Is For Yelling

So, time to make another crowner...

Definitely not Press X To Speak. That sounds like a "talk" command, which this isn't (and would be People Sit On Chairs anyway). I much prefer Press X To Holler or Press X To Shout.

I think there should be a difference between pressing a button to shout something with no effect, and pressing a button to shout something that has an obvious function in the game.

The Odd World series, for example, have the latter. You can shout several orders (e.g. "follow me") to the mudokons you're trying to rescue, and they'll obey.

Just bumping this to remind everyone the crowner's been changed. So vote for the new name and let's put this ancient topic to rest.

I'm with Spark9. We need to nail down whether or not this is about a command that is mechanically meaningless but adds atmosphere (in which case I'm not certain that it's splittable from Taunt Button), or whether it's about a command that calls an NPC to you. If it's the latter, then there are two main uses: calling NPCs to follow you for Escort Mission type things, or summoning mounts/pets to help you out. So, Call NPC or Summon Mount?

edited 21st May '11 4:46:35 PM by NativeJovian

Well, the crowner is clearly in favor of Holler Button.

And that name indicates, to me, that this should relate to any instance of a button or command to "call" somebody. Reading through the topic seems to indicate that as the preferred definition.

Any objections?

Nope.

Works for me.

So the new definition would be the PC calling out to another character, whether it has mechanical effects or not? Would stuff like summoning mounts and the like count or not?

Also, Holler Button makes me think of the holler button on the forums...

I think it should - after all, you're trying to get an NPC reaction by making the character call out. It's just that the NPC in question isn't a sophont (well, unless you're riding an intelligent talking horse, of course).

In which case, we can include Epona's Song from The Legend Of Zelda Ocarina Of Time and The Legend Of Zelda Majoras Mask and my all-time favorite example, the "Come On, Bunny!" skill from the second Star Ocean game.

The Zelda examples were what I was thinking of, honestly.

But if we're including those, what about Summon Magic in general? Would that be included? Where would we draw the line?

edited 25th May '11 10:12:07 AM by NativeJovian

I think the problem with Summon Magic, as it's used in most games, is that it's really just a regular spell that happens to have a character appear as you use it. Not only that, but despite the image, most summons do not have a verbal/auditory component. It's heavily implied that the actual thing that summons the creatures is the expenditure of Mana.

Perhaps the dividing line should be what summons the creature in question - if it's Mana, then it's Summon Magic. If it's just a sound, then it's this trope.

The two can easily overlap. Summon Magic + Calling Your Attacks is an example (but not the only example) of Holler Button. That doesn't strike me as problematic.

I dont know if that would fit really I mean like Yuna in Dissidia her fighting style is all around summoning if ya hit (depending on your setup) down Circle she will call Ifrit and say Ifrit. Every attack she does she makes a Calling Your Attacks (along with everyone else in the game) [1] [2] but still I dont think that would be an example of this.

edited 25th May '11 3:06:33 PM by Raso

Maybe we should just add a note at the top like "compare Summon Magic, which sometimes takes the form of a Holler Button"?

Good point.

Yeah, summoning is NOT this trope.

I would think one easy way to seperate is if the call is specifically magical. Sure, perhaps your horse will show up with the call button no matter where you are in the world, but it isn't outright magic...

On the other hand, I'm sure somebody would argue Epona's Song from Ocarina of Time counts as a Summoning Spell, then, since the Ocarina is magical...

Hmm, one of those differences that you'd think would be very clear, but turns out to be tricky to nail down.

Exactly, which is why I think Mana of some variety should be specifically involved for Summon Magic. Unlike a simple Holler Button, you cannot simply use it without burning up a resource. Granted, you might be able to easily restock said resource, or have enough supply that it's not a big deal, but there is still a consumed resource.

To go over some famous examples, you burn magic points in most Final Fantasy games with summons. You expend a spell slot each time you use a summoning spell in Dungeons And Dragons (and, depending on the version and class involved, you might have to spend time studying before you can cast it again, even if you have more of the appropriate spell slot). Magic The Gathering, of course, requires sources of Mana to be tapped for anything beyond the simplest and weakest of creatures. Various supernaturals in the World Of Darkness can summon if they have the appropriate powers and spend their powering resource (vitae for vampires, essence for mages, gnosis for werecritters, etc.).

Meanwhile, Link can call Epona all he wants without spending anything (although she'll just trot up if you're right next to her). For all that "Come On Bunny!" has a chance of failure in Star Ocean: The Second Story, you can keep trying it until it does work. Those, under my proposed definition, would not be Summon Magic and still would fit under Holler Button.

Making it so that it it excludes ones that cost something like Equivelent Exchange doesn't stop Summon Magic the Dissidia example it doesnt cost a thing to summon. Same thing with Final Fantasy VIII what has no mana system and Final Fantasy X which are free and completely replace you party.

Dissidia's Assist system seems like a good example of this but it does cost something. As you fight you build a meter and when full press L + O to call them and they will do an attack. Rinoa's Limit Break in FFVIII seems like a decent example too when used she whistles calls her dog who then does a random attack she gives him a treat and leaves. And in IX square button uses a whistle to call your save moogle on the world map.

Personally I think it has to be they have to exist in the real world however the act of calling them can cause them to come out of Hammerspace for pure gameplay reasons.

edited 26th May '11 3:13:12 AM by Raso

Well, the important thing is that we split this hair at least once more.

Joking aside, you're right about Final Fantasy VIII that summons don't work like how I'd define Summon Magic - of course, that leads to discussion about the engine used in VIII that I swore I'd never get into again (one too many arguments in a Broken Base). It could be said that just because the creator calls something the same as a trope name doesn't mean it's actually an example of said trope.

The problem with the "exist in the world" argument is that we do still run into parts where what we traditionally call summon magic doesn't fit into the trope of that name. Final Fantasy VIII is actually a great example again - all of the Guardian Forces exist in the world, and they just come out when you call for them (some, like Ifrit, the Brothers, and the Tonberry King, you have more than a token interaction with, but all of them are there somewhere). You could make the argument that they function similarly in Final Fantasy IV, when you get to go further underground to get to the realm of the summoned monsters.

We could always simply define Summon Magic as that which is specifically called such in their respective media... but that seems like a pretty flimsy justification for a trope.

Perhaps it has to be that the summoning is explicitly magical. Link summoning Epona and Wander calling Agro may essentially teleport them there, but the game doesn't really claim it is teleportation, they just happened to be closeby. As opposed to Yuna summoning and all that, where even if it costs nothing, it still requires some sort of magical skill.