During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
As we've discussed? Yea.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on Abbadon. Also @Lighty thoughts on new info on Mudou on previous page?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
The MILF Virus
More lore came out and a numerous amount of killers are revealed to be brainwash, or influence by the Entity. While they all do horrible things in their own way, the fact their not in full control of themselves lower the heinousness level since they don't make their actions by choice. The killers I might bring up again are people who have been fully establish as killers who were never brainwash and served the Entity willingly.
And as our policy has shown, as long as the killer difference themselves from everyone else it would be valid. I think these killers are differentiated enough to hold their own evil.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
I think he still just makes it, though a reread may change my mind.
Should note that in Darksiders, nobody else can possibly qualify as a CM as of yet. Absalom probably has the highest reaching body count, but he loves his people, the Nephilim...most villains in the series are ultimately tragic, and the true Big Bad of Darksiders 3, Envy, isn't really heinous enough.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 11th 2018 at 8:06:18 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Abaddon The Despoiler, sorry, wrong Franchise. But still a Yes tho.
Abaddon the Destroyer.
Also. Abaddon the Des is the best one tho
Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 11th 2018 at 11:12:19 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Ultimate Moral Compass
Abaddon, who I think ‘’just’’ makes it. Another CM for Troy Baker.
Weak yes to Abaddon I guess.
Sure for Abaddon.
Alright, final Midsomers post... this is from series' 7's The Straw Woman, featuring religious unrest in a Midsomer parish when a man is burned alive in a straw woman, Wicker Man style. Blame is thrown onto the elderly hedonist who bought out a local manor house for his supposed "pagan" orgies... but the real culprist? Is his nurse, Agnes Waterhouse (an ironic name for reasons you will quickly see why).
Who is Agnes? What has she done?
Agnes Waterhouse is a terminal nurse and one of the two nurses for the ailing Alan Clifford, said wealthy hedonist with a lifestyle that's made him... controversial in the parish. Agnes has something of a covert obsession with Alan, and more specifically his intention to "die a perfect death," intentionally steering him away from medicine that could save his life and keeping him infirm, weak, while planning to commit murder-suicide with him in her self-styled perfect death.
Now, there are those who would stand between her and that... and so Agnes sets to work murdering them with probably one of the most horrifying MOs in the series: burning people alive. The local curate, Alex Deakin, is sedated by Agnes and trapped in the head of the straw woman as the townspeople are burning it, awakening only long enough to feel every second of his resultant fiery demise. His gay lover, Jim Hale? Agnes preys on him while he mourns Deakin's death, using her skills in chemistry to make him combust and watching him burn to death, screaming. Agnes targets another man vocally opposed to her practices, John Cole, and horrifically sets him aflame too... Cole survives, but just barely, left on the edge of death in urgent care. Agnes' most horrible kill? The adorable schoolteacher Liz Francis, who ends up falling in love with one of the cops working the case... Agnes knocks her out cold with a candlestick, then sets her on fire. Said cop? Arrives too late with Liz having already burned to death.
Agnes' final plan? Agnes frames her rival Kate for the murders, taking advantage of the townsfolk's paranoia and the fact Kate's the descendant of a witch, ensuring Kate's life is ruined... while finally trying to kill Alan himself and die with him in the perfect death, trying to cut off Alan's life support. She's figured out and arrested before then, dragged away from Alan in a hysterical fit. In the end, as Agnes recaps her motive, when the grieving cop asks why she killed Liz? Agnes' only reply is a mocking, remorseless smile and a cheery "I had to."
Any mitigating factors?
I'd say no. Her "love" for Alan? Another case of psychotic yandere obsession at best. No care for him; she manipulates him, poisons him, tries to murder him...
As for the series standard? Three murders, two more attempted, and a frame-up. Not a bad body count for the series' standards, but what sets Agnes apart is that four of those murders/attempted murders are by burning her victims alive, which is a uniquely brutal and awful way to go. Other killers in the series have killed people through the use of burning them, but Agnes is the only one to have made a regular practice out of it. She's one of the series' worst, and she has absolutely no regrets about any of it when she's finally brought in.
Conclusion?
Our final and nastiest Midsomer keep.
Thoughts?
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 11th 2018 at 9:57:04 AM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Abaddon
EASY yes to Agnes.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Yes to Abbadon and HELL yes to Agnes
Edited by Kylotrope on Dec 11th 2018 at 9:00:08 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Gentle Laborer
Abaddon and Agnes
yup to Anges.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
O_O on Agnes
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Also, gonna call Doc Strange 2 there. Just announced.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Snap... I would've loved to take that one, given I had the first.
Also, question. Weren't we going to do something about the Arkn Mythos? Dee'bo's entry needs to be axed if there's inaccurate information there.
to Agnes.
Also, now that it's midnight in my timezone, I just turned 21!
...You know, the "kid" part of my username has became very outdated.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Agnes.
Hey, happy B-Day! I turn 21 in exactly a month.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Dec 11th 2018 at 9:20:39 AM
"No running in the halls!"
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
I'll be turning 27 next month.
Stencil us both in, Scraggle. Always happy to split! And happy bday, awesome.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 11th 2018 at 9:37:45 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Happy Bday Awesome.
Out of curiosity, when did you first join?
Things are really about to get Fun around here
- Midsomer Murders:
- Agnes Waterhouse from “The Straw Woman” is a sociopath obsessed with the “perfect death” with a liking for burning their victims alive. To rid themself of potential obstacles, the killer traps the local consulate in a straw woman to have him burned alive and screaming; murders the consulate's gay lover and attempts the life of a doctor by setting their clothes alight with phosphorous; and murders the innocent schoolteacher Liz Francis by bludgeoning her with a candlestick and setting her alight. Agnes tosses the blame on her rival and nearly commits murder-suicide with her ward Alan Clifford, and when asked why they murdered Liz by a grieving Dan Scott, the killer's only response is a cheerful smile and a remorseless affirmation of “I had to.”
- Hayley Brantner from “Schooled in Murders,” to assure they aren't seen as “weak” by the town, turns to murder to empower themself. The killer targets everyone whom they feel has put them down in the past, crushing an old schoolmate's skull with a wheel of cheese; garroting another man to death; stabbing her husband through the heart with a cheese needle; and leaving a woman and her guiltless husband to be trampled to death by cows. After their final two attempted murders are foiled, the killer's self-pitying Motive Rant is thrown right back in their face as a shallow excuse for their uniquely long line of victims.
- Mark of the Devil:
- Lord Cumberland, a feared witch-finder general with a legacy of torture and execution behind him, is living embodiment of the era's worst hypocrisies. Cumberland arrives in a European village whereupon he immediately assumes duty having those accused as “witches” tried and tortured in every way imaginable before being set to burn at the stake. With a shallow facade of piety, Cumberland becomes more and more openly corrupt and selfish, keeping a young man prisoner under constant torture to have him sign away his inheritance to Cumberland, strangling the corrupt Albino to death after he mocks him over his impotence, and even having a rape victim's tongue torn out when she refuses to confess to her accusations before irritably ordering her executed. Cumberland's hypocrisy comes to a head when rapes Vanessa in lustful frustration and afterwards he has an entire family set for torture and execution under charges he knows are false, condemning even his once-loyal apprentice to death for his rebellion and responding to rebellion by ordering his men to ride into town and butcher every last man, woman and child out of spite.
- The aforementioned Albino, the witch-finder before Cumberland, is a licentious sadist who doesn't even bother with piety to mask his atrocities, using his position to have countless tortured and murdered with no attention to even due process. A consummate serial rapist, uses his position as witch-finder to coerce women to his bed or burn, attempting to have his way with the maid Vanessa and vowing to find any way to see her burn when she rejects him. Albino is finally brought to Cumberland after attempting to rape a woman in her own home and having her husband murdered, sneering that he'll see Cumberland's reputation destroyed before he's ever replaced as witch-finder.
- Krosmoz universe: Mongrelamus, the most wicked and powerful of the original ten Shushu aside from Rushu himself, survived his brother's purge by possessing the bodies of heroes, wreaking unspeakable atrocities. In the Dofus Era, Mongrelamus possessed the Sacrier Katar in a bid to possess the body of the noble Iop warrior Goultard, and to this end butchered Goultard's wife and three kids, mocking him with the bodies. After driving Goultard to broken rage, Mongrelamus ditched Katar, possessed Goultard, and butchered Katar, using Goultard's body to massacre countless lives across the World of Twelve and create a legacy of butchered innocents.
- The Hunchback of Notre Dame: Judge Claude Frollo, the Minister of Justice, is a deeply prejudiced and hypocritical official who seeks to totally exterminate the gypsies scattered around Paris. Frollo introduces himself murdering a fleeing mother and nearly drowning her infant child for the crime of being deformed. With the archdeacon's intervention instilling the fear of divine retribution in him, Frollo dubbed the child Quasimodo and raised him in isolation under emotional abuse. Deeply enraptured with the gypsy Esmeralda, Frollo resolves to make Esmeralda his or watch her burn, offering "choose me or the fire" when she's tied to the stake. Frollo has gigantic sections of Paris burned in his further attempt to find the gypsies; orders a family torched alive in their own house; and even tries to murder Quasimodo himself in the end after having seemingly murdered Esmeralda, forsaking all piety to reveal the monster he's always been within.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 11th 2018 at 11:01:19 AM
Yeah, that would...prolly do it. Now, it's been two weeks since the release of Darksiders 3 and we have no keepers there. Nobody is heinous enough, but I am keeping a CLOSE eye on Lucifer himself, who is allowing everyone and everything to die as long as he comes out on top...he hasn't appeared nearly enough, though.
That said, I am taking a look back at the previous Darksiders. Now, Darksiders 2 has Absalom who cannot count. He's a Tragic Villain corrupted by his desire to save his species. Which leads us to Darksiders 1...enter the Destroyer.
Who is the Destroyer?
The Big Bad of game 1, a hellish, molten dragon beast and the leader of Hell's demon armies. To explain the lore a bit in Darksiders...Heaven and hell are in a stalemate. Now, long ago, the Nephilim, created by Lilith, sought to claim a home for themselves and destroy humanity. Four Nephilim: Death, Strife, Fury and War, broke from their brethren and destroyed them all, becoming guardians of the Balance between heaven and hell, with the apocalypse as a controlled event. War however...arrives too early on a supposed apocalypse and the world is destroyed. Framed for causing Armageddon, war must clear his name. The three games happen more or less concurrently, each featuring a different Horseman (or woman in Fury's case)...now, let's talk the Destroyer.
It turns out the Destroyer is Abaddon, an angel. Abaddon was once the leader of the Hellguard, the angels whose job it is to fight Hell's forces directly...weary of the constant warring and stalemates, Abaddon hatched a daring plan: he broke 6 of the seven seals to lure the demons into a trap, but didn't break the 7th to not trigger armageddon and keep the horsemen away...but War showed up, called anyways. Abaddon was shocked and distracted...and supposedly slain by the demon Straga....in truth, he was taken to hell where Lilith herself made him an offer: his treachery would be exposed, and he would face his punishment. "Will you reign in hell, or serve in heaven?" Abaddon...joined the demons and became the Destroyer.
With a century long reign over earth, Abaddon embraced his new role, hunting down and slaughtering all of humanity, a genocide that all but exterminated humanity. Giving the demons free reign over earth, Abaddon entrusted regions to his most powerful demons, his Chosen, who were given a ton of free will to brutalize countless innocents as they pleased, devouring and exterminating as they will. Even worse? The Hellguard forces were cut off from heaven. Abaddon began hunting down his former comrades, murdering them and whoever else was in the way, with a catastrophic death toll. At the climax of Darksiders , Fury ends up defending the last enclave of humanity as Abaddon arrives with direct orders to butcher every living thing present and complete his genocide before the demons move on in their conquest....however, War manages to steadily dismantle his plans and uncover the truth, as Abaddon attacks the last of the Hellguard to slaughter them, including his former right hand woman Uriel who once loved him...War arrives and meets abaddon who offers him a choice to "reign in hell or serve in heaven."
War, being a god-tier badass? "I choose what once a coward did not." In the final battle, the two face off, ending as War strikes Abaddon down. As War advances upon him, Abaddon begs Uriel for help, only for Uriel to coldly say "reap what you have sown, betrayer" just as War buries his sword in Abaddon's heart, finishing him for good...and breaking the last seal soon after, summoning War, Strife and Death for the coming final battle.
Heinous standard?
Well...genocide is a thing in Darksiders. The Nephilim ran rampant and the Four Horsemen had to destroy them, and it's a dark as HELL world. However, Abaddon is kind of the reason here...the genocide of earth, while something of an accident initially...upon becoming the Destroyer, Abaddon embraces his role, exterminating humanity, killing the Hellguard and countless others. Compared to the Seven Sins, he easily outstrips the VAST majority of characters in body count. It's not even close there.
Mitigating Qualities?
Now, there is interesting discussion about Abaddon as he's actually a complex villain. Abaddon was once a loyal son of heaven who wanted to defeat hell...tricking the demons into attacking earth was a scheme to wipe them out with minimal damage...the thing is? Abaddon broke the law here and was afraid to be punished for it...so what's he do? Side with the demons he hates and becomes one of them, even makign the demon who killed him his top general, before devoting himself to the destruction of humanity with absolutely zero hesitation or remorse.
There is one scene that had given me pause on Abaddon previously. With the Hellguard defeated, War arrives to see Abaddon holding Uriel in his claws, and he says with surprising...wistfulness "she mistook me for...someone else. She loved him. And I beleive....he loved her. Long ago. Before all this." With a touch of emotion in his voice...before he makes his offer to War.
Thing is...once War rejects him? He snarls and throws Uriel aside like she's ceased to matter, with indications he'd complete wiping out the Hellguard, sealing that Abaddon from before is truly gone. When he's about to die, he does beg her for help, but it's been well established that Abaddon is a coward terrified of the consequences of his own actions, and Uriel offers him no sympathy. In the end? abaddon chose to reign in hell and everything is of his own doing.
Conclusion?
Remarkably a tough one. Abaddon's problems are entirely his own doing and he chooses to become a monster to escape the penalty for them. The only thing left is his potential care for Uriel...but he seems to invoke That Man Is Dead and hurls her aside quite literally. He's a complex monster, yes, but I think he just makes it.