Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

@Kylo: Others have put up counterarguments that essentially sums up what I think. Legitimacy of the post or not, it sounds like Agate has genuine agency issues.

For Hawk? I'm abstaining. Leaning no, honestly, and I have serious issue with anyone from Dead By Daylight counting. Even disregarding my worries about Offstage Villainy in their backstories (which seems to be where the majority of their crimes come from in a lot of cases) and the whole issue with the Entity and how it's controlling them? The heinous standard of this game is so stupidly high (the fact some of the killers are sympathetic doesn't remove the fact that they're all serial killers with gigantic body counts and the central premise of the game is said serial killers brutally murdering a bunch of innocent people over and over and over) that I really don't think anyone properly stands out. When every single playable killer is a mass murdering douchebag, I vouch you don't stand out simply by being slightly worse or lacking redeeming qualities — all of these atrocities are blending in for me.

edited 31st May '18 9:15:13 PM by Scraggle

@Scraggle Well it depends, if the backstories are all text and nothing onscreen than it doesn't count like for Jack Merrick.

Aren't their backstories all text, though? That's my understanding — the only real "onscreen" villainy are the murders they get up to during actual gameplay. And that still doesn't remove my concern about the heinous standard — one of the more sympathetic killers, the Huntress/Anna? Slaughters entire families, kidnaps their children, shackles them up, and starves them to death. Accidentally, yes, but this doesn't stop her from repeating it and it doesn't change the fact she's starving children to death.

edited 31st May '18 9:22:19 PM by Scraggle

Don't even remind me of that I'm gonna keep my vote on Hawk, dude seems pretty unique even for a game filled with serial killers, mass murderers, and overall horrible people.

Yooo

edited 31st May '18 9:24:31 PM by TheMadCr0w

@Scraggle You have a good argument, if there are no counterarguments to this than no to Hawk and the other two should probably be cut due to heinousness and text backstory, IF there isn't any counterarguments to this.

Well, I'll wait for counterarguments and I won't throw a fit if I'm outweighed, but I've long, long had any skepticism about Dead By Daylight having anyone that would truly stand out unless the Entity actually receives some characterization/onscreen presence.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree....this is a classic case of nastier' not being 'more heinous than' when all the killers have amass amount of bodies, and when you throw in Freddy Krueger and Leatherface?

Switching to abstain on Hawk until evidence comes out proving that he counts.

As it is after 12 PM where I live, it is officially the first of June. Time to discuss the Thirteen Reasons Why candidates.

First up will be Bryce. I will do Montgomery later but first let me tell you guys about the series......

What is the work?

Thirteen Reasons Why is a Netflix original drama series adaption of the novel of the same name. The series specifcally tackles controversal topics that young teens becoming adults typically go through such as sexual assault, drug overdose, substance abuse, suicide and more.

The series opens with Liberty High school mourning the death of Hannah Baker, who had just a few weeks ago took her own life. Following her death her parents filled a lawsuit against the school.  However, before she died she had recorded negative experiences she had with other kids at her school that contributed to her suicide and made a tape for each of them as a reason of what lead her to take her life.

One day, Clay Jenson gets a package in the mail containing these cassette tapes.  Upon playing them we get flashbacks of Hannah's history with these kids and what exactly they did to have a hand in this tragic suicide.

I think that is enough of a synopsis onto the candidate.

Who is he?

Bryce Walker serves as the Big Bad of the series. He is a senior at Liberty High. He is captain of the football and baseball teams and comes from a wealthy family. He is listed on Hannah's twelfth tape of reasons why.

He is used to getting what he wants and is more than willing to take it by force. He is best friends with Justin Foley.

What does he do?

Bryce, along with Justin and the other jocks at their school meet Hannah at a summer party thrown for Hannah's friend Kat who was Justin's girlfriend. A few months later, Hannah starts her first semester at Liberty High, her friend Kat had moved by then and ended her relationship with Justin.

Hannah soon hooks up with Justin. Their relationship however, shortly comes to an end when Justin takes a picture of Hannah's upskirt while she was falling down the playground slide. Justin shows Bryce and the other jocks the pictures, Bryce believing Justin got him "some" takes Justin's phone and forwards them to the whole school.

Bryce pushes Alex to contribute to the hot or not list that Bryce started causing Alex and Jessica's break up and Hannah and Jessica's falling out. This along with his posting to the whole school Hannah's upskirt is what cemented Hannah's reputation of being "easy" or a slut and ultimately ruined her life.

While at the liquor store Bryce groupes Hannah claiming her butt is "tight" when Hannah gets disgusted he covers it up by saying it is tight in the store.

At a party Jessica pass out in a room after she had to much to drink. Justin lets her sleep it off and goes out of the room, Bryce shows up. Justin tries to get him to back out of the room but Bryce manipulates him into letting him on. Bryce goes onto raping Jessica while she is passed out.

Hannah shows up at one of Bryce's parties upon her having a horrible day. Bryce greets her and she joins Jessica, Justin, Zach and his girlfriend in Bryce's hot-tub. After a few minutes, Hannah relaxes in and the four others eventually leave to hangout elsewhere. Bryce then enters the hot tub, after some small talk he begins molesting Hannah. Hannah tries to get him off of her but he overpowers her, takes her underwear off and brutally rapes her.

The rape was brutal enough that Hannah had bruises on her arm when he was done. When Hannah goes to the school guidance counselor, Mr. Porter. She vaguely reports to him about how a boy that goes there sexually assaulted her but can't work up the courage to tell him that it was Bryce. Leading to Hannah sliting her wrists in the bathtub thus taking her life.

When Clay finds out this he shows up at Bryce's door to buy weed. While there, Clay questions him on what happened between Hannah and him that night at the hot tub. Bryce lies and says that she wanted it and then proceeds to violently beat up Clay to the point where he passes out from the pain, proclaiming that Hannah was begging him to fuck her and if that is rape every girl at Liberty wants to be raped.

Clay records this onto the back of the thirteenth tape. He then goes to Mr. Potter's office and confronts him, afterward he gives the cassette tapes to him of Bryce's rape confession.

In the second season, Bryce and his girlfriend, Chloe are asked to testify at Hannah's trial. Meanwhile Clay receives a polaroid in his locker that shows a girl partying with one of the players on the baseball team, with a note on the back stating that "Hannah wasn't the only one".

Clay receives a second Polaroid this time showing Bryce raping a passed out girl, the girl's face is hidden however. On the back it states that "he (Bryce) won't stop".

Clay later receives a third Polaroid showing a girl grinding on a guy, with "The clubhouse" written on the back.

Clay leaks Hannah's tapes to the whole school. As a result of this, Chloe confronts Bryce about it, at which point Bryce lies about him and Hannah hooking up.

Sheri memorizes the combination to the clubhouse where the jocks of the baseball team hang out at and she along with Clay and Justin find a box of polaroids of girls Bryce and his cronies have drugged and sexually assaulted while intoxicated. While looking through the box Clay finds the same Polaroid of Bryce raping a passed out girl but this one has her face shown to be Chloe.

Bryce lies about Hannah coming onto him and the two having an on again off again relationship during his testimony. He also denies all claim of raping stating that he knew what she wanted.

The group shows Chloe and tries to convince her to testify against Bryce that he had sex with her without her consent. Chloe testifies for the Bakers but instead of telling the truth she lies and says that having sex with Bryce was consensual.

Jessica goes to the police station and reports Bryce's rape of her and Justin confesses to his inactivity of it.

Tony goes to the store to help Mrs. Baker, Clay goes to the movies, and Alex and Jessica go to Monets as they wait for the verdict to come back. The verdict is in favor of Liberty High as they are found not guilty. However, after stepping out of the courtroom Bryce gets arrested due to Jessica's report, as well as Justin for being an accessory to the crime.

Due to his wealth, Bryce almost immediately gets bailed out. The court then gives Bryce a three month probation sentence and is forced to change schools. Considering, the severity of his crimes that is hardly any worse than a slap on the wrist but whatever.

Mitigating Factors/Redeeming Qualities?

He has a FE. In that he suffers from Parental Neglect. His parents were never active in his life, often times leaving him at home by himself while they go on business trips or vacations, and gave him all the freedom he wanted from a very early age without ever really setting boundaries or proper discipline. He tells his mother that he has "always" been a stranger in their house. I find this excuse quite weak. Justin Prentince (the actor that plays Bryce) even said that Bryce is a monster and said that this excuse wasn't meant to elect sympathy, it was only meant to give his character some complexity.

He was close friends with Justin. There was even a flashback of when the two first met in the third grade where Bryce stood up for Justin when he was being teased. Even in the season two finale on his last day at Liberty, he takes the time to reminisce with Justin about the "good times" they had. However Bryce views their friendship more as a way of owning him or manipulating him. He convinced  Justin to let him in the room Jessica by quoting "what is mine is yours" and shows no remorse about the mental damage he's caused Justin from it.

When Justin becomes so depressed and leaves his home and school to live on the streets for five months he hardly bats an eye.

Bryce claims to love his girlfriend, Chloe but it is clear that his relationship with her is purely manipulative. Especially since he raped her, showing that even his own girlfriend isn't safe from his predetary tendencies. Speaking of his tendencies, another thing that is worth noting is how he even subverts the Obliviously Evil trope. As he is always denying having raped any of his victims often times victim blaming claiming "they wanted it" or "I didn't tell her to get intoxicated" yet the flashback he has reflecting on the events at the hot tub that led him to rape Hannah shows he knew full well what he was doing and got a fucking BONER thinking about how he overpowered a helpless girl that led to her killing herself!

As for his arc being over, Bryce had to switch schools so if the series does get renewed for a third season it is unlikely he will make any significant appearances. Although the season finale does reveal that Chloe is pregnant with his child so it is certainly possible for him to play a role in the next season.

Heinous Standard?

Everyone listed in Hannah's tapes had done something to contribute to her suicide such as Justin letting Bryce in the room Jessica was in, Courtney spreading lies that Hannah was in a lesbian relationship, Alex contributing to the hot or not list, Zach stealing Hannah's positivity notes. However, all of those acts pale in comparison to what Bryce did to her and unlike Bryce those characters felt remorse for committing those acts and were redeemed, most of those acts can be traced back to Bryce anyway.

Now sexual assault (unfourtunatlly) isn't at all uncommon, however Bryce (aside from Monty who I will get to next) is the only character to do it onscreen and have a clear pattern established of it through the box of polaroids.

EDIT: I haven't seen the second season but if Bryce is genuinely polite than I am unsure, he would still be as evil as he is but yeah, unsure if he is actually polite and it isn't a facade.

edited 31st May '18 9:57:06 PM by Knack

Unsure on Bryce. Sure he is a scumbag, but the dude is not a sadist, he genuinely believes that he is not causing any pain or trauma, and at his core, he really wants Justin to be his friend, even getting upset when he reveals his crimes, knowing that he had lost his old friend. Not mentioning his friendly interactions with Clay and other students. Personally he comes across as an Affably Evil Hate Sink than a true Complete Monster.

Unfortunately yes, i personally hate the show for handling topics like depression and sexual assault in such a wrong way, but what can i do right.

edited 31st May '18 10:01:14 PM by TheMadCr0w

You have seen the second season then? If so than I do not know what to say on this.

edited 31st May '18 10:00:17 PM by Knack

@The Mad Crow, the flaahback Bryce had of the night he raped Hannah showed what really happened. He knew what he was doing and got a boner reminiscing about her screams. That IS being a sadist.

Bryce isn't genuinely friendly. He may talk nice to Clay and the other students burban he has no problem beating them to bloody pulps once they piss him off. That is not genuine Affability.

He didn't bat an eye when Justin was out on the street for several months. His friendship isn't even played as a redeeming quality, it is played as a toxic, manipulative friendship.

edited 31st May '18 10:10:05 PM by username2527

So anyway I admit I lost the battle even though I stand by my standing that she was in control of her actions as nothing in the show or from my research seems to imply otherwise however I guess well have to wait for camila herself to give a straight answer on it. Apologies if I came off as a sore loser before I guess I'm just disapointed because at first when people started saying yes I got excited feeling I would make an impact, so naturally when more support came for the other option. And personally I still feel like it was based more on Alternate Charachter Interpretation then anything stated in canon(wich is agaisnt the rules for C Ms)

But moving on. Lets get to the one im surprised no one addressed was the crystal falls universe version of bill cipher I was thinking about doing the Universe Falls version of bill but I felt he wasnt different enough from his canon incarnation, Crystal falls on the other hand by design has him do enough different stuff to count

Go for it if you think he is different enough.

edited 31st May '18 10:05:19 PM by Knack

That was the only time the show tried to paint him as an evil douchebag worthy of appearing in a police procedural. Still, no matter how twisted his friendship with Justin is, he really cares about his friend.

I'm going to bed now because i'm really exhausted (it's 2 AM where i live), leaving the discussion on Bryce for other tropers.

edited 31st May '18 10:12:00 PM by TheMadCr0w

Unsure on Bryce. There are two clashing perspectives here so it is hard to tell.

edited 31st May '18 10:16:38 PM by Knack

About Dead by Daylight, backstory is connected to the gameplay itself. You see when playing as killers, you can get perks by getting add-ons which are items from their bloody past. There's also how they act in the game reflecting the backstory, from Hawk cutting the fingers off his victims after killing them and then laughing DURING GAMEPLAY, The Doctor laughing maniacally and his power literally mind raping his victims to kill, and Myers entire gameplay of stalking included. It's like how League of Legends characters can count even if their backstory is own text, it reflects to their actions in the game

Also characters can stand-out in this, because while all the killers well kill, how they do it and why they do it sets them apart. The Trapper traps his victims, but he was warped by the Entity to do it, And as mention above, the others does do acts that sets them apart from other killers.

edited 31st May '18 10:33:03 PM by TheImmortalAngelNewton

League of Legends characters have introductory videos as well that show their crimes onscreen. The problem in heinousness isn't that they are different enough from each other, the problem is the sheer number of mass murderers in the game who are playable including sympathetic characters who despite how different their crimes are, they are still heinous enough to make it hard for others to stand in particular. They are different yes but heinousness is still a problem anyways since no matter how different their methods are they are all horrifying in how they kill people and a number of them are sympathetic despite that.

edited 31st May '18 10:40:04 PM by Knack

True, but there are also trailers for the killers as far as I'm concern. As someone who actually plays the game, the heinousness can easily be seen at the gameplay of each killer. They all unique attributes that reflect them and some of these things make them even worse then others. That's my main argument. While their story is explain in text, the actions they do their is reflected to how they act in the game. You literally see Hawk cut people's fingers in the game and lick them.

Really though, all the characters heinousness are different. As I mention, majority of the characters are insane and not really in control of their actions. All the characters I propose have always been people who did their acts willingly and had no external factors affecting them. Freddy is also the same boat, but I never propose him because I believe he doesn't reflect his heinousness in the gameplay to count him and like Scraglle said it sounds like all backstory. The rest does and they definitely do things that put them above everyone else.

edited 31st May '18 10:41:47 PM by TheImmortalAngelNewton

Okay, if it is like League like you say it is then they definitely might count. I am not doubting you have actually played the game but I don't think we have gone over this specific game in its portrayal of heinousness enough or onscreen crimes enough. But just to be sure, are the introduction videos for each killer detailed enough in the crimes they have committed?

edited 31st May '18 10:46:59 PM by Knack

Offscreen Villainy or not, I'm not swayed on the standard at all. The Trapper traps his victims, the Huntress hunters her victims, Leatherface chainsaws and eats his victims, Myers stabs them to death... okay, can you see why this is a problem? All of these killers have some sort of unique motif going on and almost all of them are godawful ways to go for the victims. The game functions on creatively brutal murders — "more creatively brutal" doesn't mean "more heinous." "Different" does not necessarily mean "more heinous" when these kinds of acts in general are so commonplace. The heinous standard is polluted and it's in part because of the central premise itself and the nature of the setting.

By the way? "Warped by the Entity" means nothing. Characters still contribute to the heinous standard even if they're nowhere close to the trope.

Anyone else want to weigh on on Dead By Daylight? I'm crashing now but I'd like to see some more opinions here. I'm officially a no on Hawk as well and I'm motioning we cut the two we already have listed.

I'm... abstaining on Bryce. Want a counterargument because the nature of the character means I think it his Affably Evil behavior can just be explained as a ruse for the predator he really is, as has been the case with many similar baddies.

edited 31st May '18 10:49:40 PM by Scraggle

@Scraggle Yeah, the main problem the League comparison has for heinousness anyways is that the heinousness of league is nothing compared to a game of killers who are competing for most heinous person of all time.

edited 31st May '18 11:00:33 PM by Knack

The heinousness in my opinion should reflect the reason the killer does what he does, how much control they have to their action and the methods they. Many of them kill in masses, but everyone clearly has more body counts then others.

The Nurse, Pig and Hag hasn't kill as much as the other killers.

The Trapper, and Wraith clearly show they don't have full control and are people who are suffering from mental illnesses.

The Hilbilly and Nurse both don't really have a moral agency due to never being thought about it.

And Freddy won't count for his lack of reflecting his heinousness in the game.

Myers, The Doctor and Hawk all does and do something to stand out from each other. The Doctor mind rapes all his victims both in and out of the game, and enjoys it in game. Hawk is the only killer with confirm child victims and does his signature as a serial killer in game (cutting fingers of his victims in his instant kill) and Myers actions are shown in his unique map, Haddonfield and his stalking mechanic.

I thought we establish this last time we talked about the other two. As far as we were concern, all killers may kill, but how they go to it can go beyond how others does. All I propose are does who goes beyond simply hunting victims and killing them, these three does more then that.

edited 31st May '18 10:55:30 PM by TheImmortalAngelNewton

Based on how numerous the killers actually are and how despite how different they are it still contributes to the standard and how almost all of the killers murder methods are highly cruel it is still hard for anybody to count anyways. Based on this no to Hawk and cut the two entries.

edited 31st May '18 10:55:56 PM by Knack