During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I actually feel like a better comparison than G1 Tirek would be Adventure Time's Lich. It's a darker show, but that guy is pretty much the gold standard for Omnicidal Maniacs in modern children's cartoons with a large periphery demographic. Based on that analogy, Tirek's just not nearly viscerally nasty enough.
Lizzid people!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Except the Lich actually got around to killing people. G4!Tirek didn't.
edited 10th May '14 4:06:36 PM by AustinDR
Of Tirek's actions?
Lizzid people!
True, his actions would've led to the deaths of billions of ponies, woodland creatures, and magical creatures, but he never directly murdered anyone as far as I'm concerned. However, as far as the heinous standard is, he passes it 100%.
edited 10th May '14 4:10:38 PM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Isn't the guideline they only have to TRY to do whatever, not whether they succeed? Now, if they just THINK about it, that's different.
edited 10th May '14 4:27:43 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
Then if he genuinely tried to kill someone, then he would count.
He certainly managed to make it look like he was trying to when fighting Twilight. 
I'm thinking no on G 4 Tirek. He's heinous enough sure, but he just doesn't do anything that Ganondorf from OOT didn't do, only Ganon killed people. If Ganondorf can't qualify or Ghetsis (yes I'm us his name) couldn't, I can't imagine why Tirek would either. He's certainly the most heinous character in the show thus far, but again let's look at the show's themes. Every villain up to this point that hasn't been destroyed (aside from Chrysalis, but that's only a matter of time) has been redeemed. In a show about cartoon ponies redeeming baddies with the Power of Friendship, I just can't imagine Tirek not being redeemed eventually.
With that said, he certainly passes the heinous standard and could very well qualify if this was a different work. I can't outright say no to him because he SHOULD technically qualify. If we were able to have RL examples, would we disqualify Hitler because he failed to kill all those Jewish people? Yes, I know I'm bringing up Godwin's Law here but think about it. A villain doesn't necessarily have to succeed in order to be a monster. G 4 Tirek should theoretically qualify it's just harder to say yes to him than say Frollo. I think we should wait until S5 is over. If Tirek isn't redeemed in the next season, he probably should qualify.
Also, as said before he did indeed try to kill Twilight.
edited 10th May '14 5:12:10 PM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Wait, how many villains who weren't destroyed have been redeemed? Kind of a small pool to draw from
Discord, and Sunset Shimmer if you count the movie. (At least I think she was since I never watched it or paid it any attention.)
And The Great and Powerful Trixie if you consider her a villain.
edited 10th May '14 5:47:52 PM by doineedaname
A total has-been.
And Nightmare Moon. Yes, Sunset Shimmer did indeed get a (rushed and unconvincing) redemption.
At this point, Tirek's qualification seems pretty divisive. Regardless on what we settle on, I'm thinking the statement on the Never Again list ought to be changed to state that while the show is still ongoing, as of now, Tirek sets the heinous standard, so the villains who don't measure up to him cannot possibly qualify.
Didn't the comics say Nightmare Moon was caused by Luna being manipulated then possessed by some Eldritch Abomination?
A total has-been.
Well yeah, her villainy wasn't her fault. Doesn't change that she technically was the first villain to appear on the show.
Doesn't even like this username
I'd also like to know what Tirek planned to do after eating all that magic. The episodes weren't very clear on that point.
Lizzid people!
From how I see it, the reason as to why G4!Tirek didn't kill most of his enemies was because he thought it was cruller to leave them alive. And also the reason as to why he would honor his part of the bargain such as when he let Twilight's friends go free, it was more because he thought he wasn't really losing anything out of doing so than genuine goodness.
edited 10th May '14 6:26:17 PM by AustinDR
A total has-been.
Still, what was he going to do with all the magic and Equestria once it was powerless? Might need to catch the re-runs to see if that was even alluded to. 
I think there were one or two lines implying he intended to rule Equestria when he finished draining magic.
Or at least making them Kneel Before Zod.
edited 10th May '14 6:30:03 PM by doineedaname
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Tirek. It sounds like most of his heinousness is more Fridge Horror rather than explicit (since the intended audience probably wouldn't grasp the implications).
As for ACW's question a few pages back, I give a on listing Video Game Monsters by the company that did them. Work is a fine way to organise things, by company is a bit too much. You can extend this to authors on other pages. The only non-work grouping I can get behind would be entities like Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Disney, Cartoon Network etc.
Lizzid people!
Didn't someone all ready state that Celestia herself out right confirmed that if there would be no more rain to fall on Equestria then everything would die? It's not really Fridge Horror if it's outright stated as a fact.
edited 10th May '14 7:02:54 PM by AustinDR
She said there would be no more rain, alongside no one being left with the strength to take care of the land.
edited 10th May '14 7:11:12 PM by doineedaname
Lizzid people!
Then it's not Fridge Horror if it's outright confirmed.
Her exact words when talking about it were "With no Pegasi to control the weather there will be no rain in Equestria" and "Without their strength they will not be able to tend the land".
edited 10th May '14 7:14:41 PM by doineedaname
Lizzid people!
Again, no pegasi means no rain. Let the math do the rest.
There's one MAJOR difference between Tirek and Nightmare Moon:
Nightmare Moon was too insane to realize that she would destroy all life.
Tirek seems completely aware of what he's doing. The motive more or less given for Tirek is Greed. ALL that matters to Tirek is Tirek.
Celestia's words about his goals imply he wanted to consume all the magic in Equestria and then move on to the rest of the world.
So basically, with Tirek, the kind of villain he is kinda similar to the Evil Entity from Scooby Doo Mystery Inc: someone who only cares about power for power's sake and is willing to suck the life out of an entire planet to get it.
As for WHY, we're not told, but given how power Tirek was at the end, having become at least TWICE as powerful as Discord was (he had Discord's power, and Twilight matched him with the power of all four princesses before he stole her power too), it's highly unlikely the world becoming unable to support life would even bother him.
And here's a fact that I don't think was mentioned yet:
During his battle with Twilight, he fires a beam powerful enough to destroy a building at Twilight in the heart of Ponyville. Twilight takes the battle to the outskirts after that, but Tirek had NO qualms about using his power in the direction of a population center.
In THIS universe, this is rather notable, as Twilight has to actively save her pet owl (who while not sapient, is a recurring character and the only one who'd be in her house at the time) from the house he destroys, showing the fact Tirek very well COULD have caught innocents in the crossfire with no remorse.
This isn't just Fridge Horror, we're actively SHOWN that if Twilight hadn't acted, a completely innocent character (even if it's an animal, in universe Animals seem more intelligent than in real life and the owl is a recurring character, as mentioned) would've been killed, then makes sure to take the fight outside of Ponyville. Tirek was willing to attack Twilight in the middle of Ponyville without an ounce of remorse or hesitation.
So in my mind, Tirek ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
I agree, a more thorough explanation would suffice.