During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The wifi here sucks
Very easy yes to the Pale Lady
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Yes to the Pale Lady.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Pale Lady
The Pale Lady. No affection for her children/minions, I'd imagine?
Yes to Jackie's second and the Pale Lady.
Okay, was planning on doing this tomorrow but I may as well get it out of the way now... I think our long-standing candidate, Ellen, from The Witch's House needs to go, like now after having tortured myself with the material. I know we mentioned the Diary before but honestly, most of the seriously legitimate issues it brings to Earth just seemed to get ignored because... people like her being listed, I guess(?) We see her starting out as a horrifically crippled child desperate for love, who lives in fear her mother will abandon her if she so much as becomes inconvenient to her and this fear becomes very real the day that Ellen—seeing a cat she adored lying dead and about to be picked apart by a crow—goes to bury it, tearing her bandages as she does so and irritating her mom to the point she leaves her with her alcoholic father, who hasn't even spoken a word to her since she was born. Snapping when she sees her mother returning to take her things after going to live a life in luxury, Ellen stabs her to death before calling out to her father as he happens upon the scene and crouches by her mother's body in horror. Now while Ellen admits to hating her mother and does kill her father, she still remains affectionate in feeling to him and weeps that even after all that, he'd never so much as look her in the eye.
Now on to her meeting the real asshole of our story: the black cat demon, who finds Ellen while she's limping and near death after accidentally setting her house on fire. Revealing it devoured the souls of her parents, Ellen is horrified to learn the fate of her father but agrees to go with the cat as she passes out near dead. Awakening in the titular house, Ellen proceeds to live her life learning under the tutelage of the cat demon, who teaches her academics and magic—I should make the point here, Ellen displays both illiteracy and lack of common knowledge, which certainly work against her in terms of how much we can say she knew she was getting into. Even at the house, Ellen has nightmares about her parents and regrets their fates and desperately wants a friend to love and by loved by. When she meets a young boy, she adores him until she accidentally ventures out of the house, where she is turned back into her disfigured, crippled state, causing him to flee in terror. Taking advantage of the broken girl, it's now that the demon verbally attacks her: stating it knows her past and tells her her parents never loved her and the boy showed he never did either by fleeing. With Ellen distraught, it's now that the demon offers to cure her ailment by her bringing him souls and now that she agrees, after being convinced she'll never have love.
Even in present, while centuries go by and Ellen grows more sadistic under the demon, there are still implications that vestiges of care reside within her and she still seems a broken child, lamenting she "failed" the house, which she believes loves her for denying it food before the cat convinced her to start killing. She's long since had her memories taken of the boy she knew so long ago but after the demon devours their souls? The spirits are left to haunt the house and when Ellen meets his ghost in present time, she remarks his being soothes her. Overall Ellen has become a monster but it's something she was broken into being and quite frankly... I don't think there's a chance in hell she meets this trope. It's not a Griffith case... he went beyond the Godhand's suggestion and became far worse than any of them. This is to the point where I think having her on the list is the embodiment of misuse born from points not being discussed at the initial time and the whole thing snowballing from there. Doesn't help that she shares her role as the villain with the demon, which doesn't have even a fraction of her tragedy, care or remorse in its being. I do want to raise a point about it later on but I'm a thousand times more comfortable with it staying and right now I'm focused on Ellen being blown out of the sky.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Being the one who initially objected to her being listed, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Ellen. Despite my attempts to convince myself otherwise, I was never comfy with her being listed.
to Lucia and Pale Lady, though.
Edited by MasterN on Apr 15th 2020 at 8:20:52 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Keep the black cat, but Ellen's Diary takes Ellen far out of this trope. Far, far out of it. Cut her and don't look back.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 15th 2020 at 9:22:26 AM
Cut Ellen
One aside I want to add here: we all know "complex" CMs are fun but let's really, really scrutinize those mitigating factors because I'm serious, this one should not have been put up. Her diary brings up about a dozen red flags that seem to have been ignored (willingly or unwillingly) for over five years now.
Was the diary just a supplement, something published later, released with the game...?
Canon prequel.
If it's canon, it doesn't matter. This is a mountain of disqualifiers for Ellen.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
And disqualifiers that ElfenLiedFan90 specifically brought up, but got ignored in favor of the flawed arguments of bobg, who basically went the Ron the Death Eater route with her.
Edited by MasterN on Apr 15th 2020 at 8:30:35 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Gentle Laborer
Ellen
Nothing more than a victim of circumstance. You did a great job, 43 ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Ellen. Though to be fair I seem to remember that when Elfen re-evaluated her awhile he thought she didn't count, but everyone else ignored it.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by Bullman on Apr 15th 2020 at 10:31:44 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Wait, I was the one who said we should cut her and got the issue stared! Where’s MY medal?!
But on a more serious note, I wonder if we should start taking a look at some other candidates with mitigating qualities that were brushed off?
Also, I know I said I would take a break... still am, but came here just for this.
Edited by MasterN on Apr 15th 2020 at 8:37:03 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I already have one of the ones I got up that I have been meaning to re-evaluate. I would like to re-ep her as well as I am not proud of the original one. It was kinda of short and not very detailed. Is that all right?
Edited by Bullman on Apr 15th 2020 at 10:38:23 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Eh, there was a lot being ignored with this one, without pointing fingers (and anyone who I've spoken to about this one off the thread can attest I was not at my most diplomatic) I think we can all agree she doesn't merit a spot on the trope and be happy we reached a conclusion where everything was accurately taken into account... I'll find room to vent about what I had to do here later.
I'd say let them come naturally, hunting down examples to cut for that purpose is going to turn real nasty real fast.
Not proud of because you think something more needed to be addressed or...?
Edited by 43110 on Apr 15th 2020 at 11:38:43 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Something more I needed to address that I really didn't. It didn't include all her crimes as well. It was just kinda of short. It might take me a few days, but it's not really a redeeming quality issue, but more of an heinous one. I noticed it while rereading the story. I guess I could just lay it out for you.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 15th 2020 at 10:58:55 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Cut Ellen...
In a Vacuum I don't think Bobgs arguments are that bad.
The issue is that it sounds like she has a Laundry List of mitigating Factors so arguing againt 1 or 2 of them isn't a good case to keep.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Bull if it's a mitigating factor or something else negative to her chances, go for it... if it's an additional crime or the like just add it to the writeup.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
It is more of an crime that I forgot or crimes I forgot. I add it to tommorow.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 15th 2020 at 11:13:24 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Genzou, Semimaru and Pale Lady.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread