Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

We've been over that one.

I really wanna play Mother 3, especially after the first 2 and Undertale. Gonna spring for that translated cartridge eventually.

On the House of Wax Villain. He's bad, but there feels like some legitimate feelings towards his family.

Oh yeah, has anyone been watching Tyrant? The deadline to discuss anyone from Season 3 passed yesterday if anyone wants to talk about someone from the show now.

And I just found out the show has been cancelled. All right then. >__<

Dude, take that shit down; you do not need to link that here.

edited 22nd Sep '16 8:51:54 PM by Tyk5919

I am not familiar with the Mother games, so I will abstain for now. However, I would like to say that smacking a child for being out late is hardly what I would call abuse.

edited 22nd Sep '16 7:12:42 PM by bobg

Did you really need to post a link to real-life abuse?

Sorry.

Some people have different standards on what constitutes abuse. For one parent, smacking your kid might be just discipline but for others, it counts as abuse. Strangling your child in The Simpsons (while most people consider it abuse) is the only thing keeping Bart from acting like a sociopath in the new episodes and therefore is discipline. Did I mention that was easily one of the worst new Simpsons episodes. I'll take almost any other new!Simpsons episode over that. But I digress.

edited 22nd Sep '16 8:36:53 PM by Klavice

Could we take the focus off child abuse, please?

Why are we even debating corporal punishment? It's irrelevant here.

Anyway, found this on YMMV.All New Wolverine.

• Complete Monster:
  • Chandler. He's utterly unapologetic about conducting illegal human experimentation, and knowingly has the Sisters infected with nanites that are slowly killing them from the inside out, while subjecting them to grueling Training from Hell. Which involved live ammunition and actually killed several of the girls. He views them, and even Laura before them, as mere experiments he can do anything he wants to, and doesn't even acknowledge them as people. He's a lying Manipulative Bastard who tells Laura everything she wants to hear about the project, and then goes behind her back to hire Taskmaster to kill the girls anyway, even after he had her convinced to help him. He has such enormous balls that when Laura finally confronts him, he tells her that his work is so valuable that he's going to walk away and there's nothing she can do about it, because it's backed by some very wealthy and powerful people.
  • As bad as Chandler is, Mooney may be even worse. He's an utterly sadistic bastard who tortured and abused the clones simply because he could, and gleefully guns down Zelda when she stands up to him and pushes his Berserk Button over the fact that no matter what he did to them, he could never truly hurt them.

Klavice, once again, stop with the "does [x] count." The search function exists. Use it.

Nobody from The Simpsons counts or ever will count. We've been through this.

I fail to see how dark Stanley isn't Played for Laughs. And even though he was revealed to be real, we only know one victim of his for certain, the rest were in Barts story, who he himself thought was made up.

edited 22nd Sep '16 8:30:09 PM by Awesomekid42

"No" on Porky for being too comedic, and absolutely "no" on Bo, both due to backstory and the fact that he doesn't exceed the norm for a slasher.

Anyway, I'll effortpost Teikun O again, since discussion on him seems to have vanished again.

Who is he? What does he do?

Teikun O/Di-Jun Huang is the current president of the China-inspired republic of Zheng Fa in the game Ace Attorney Investigations 2/Gyakuten Kenji 2. He is in actuality a body double made to replace the previous president after he ordered his assassination. He is also a Greater-Scope Villain or Bigger Bad of the game. He starts by hiring the assassin Sirhan Dogen who witnessed the murder to assassinate the actual president and take his place so he could avoid any potential assassins for his plot to rule Zheng Fa. Simon Keyes witnessed the assasination at the orphanage where he stayed at that was run by Patricia Roland and the president's widow. Jack Cameron, a news reporter was also killed by Huang after learning about the assassination by seeing it while investigating corrupt prosecutor Blaise Debeste. Before dying, Cameron told his girlfriend about a ransom Huang and his cohorts Blaise Debeste and Patricia Roland were going to obtain by pretending the president was kidnapped in an attempt to bankrupt Zheng Fa and destroy the Lang Family household financially and ruined Shi-Long Lang's faith in the law. Then Roland interrogated Keyes until he utterly broke about what he saw until he utterly broke and lost his faith in humanity (thus escalating the entire plot to the game with Keyes ending up getting revenge against all of the body double's associates including the body double himself). Some 12 years later, the body double planned an assassination attempt to gain favour back from the people, but when Edgeworth figured it out, he passed the blame on to his associate Horace Knightley and had him put on death row, which although he did kill a man out of jealousy, some would saw was a little extreme. When Keyes was a Spanner in the Works to the plan, he hid in his plane to make sure he wouldn't be killed while others were being shot at by the assassin.

When the noble judge Justine Courtney confronted him about her adopted son John Marsh who he was planning on having erased, he pulled a pistol and tried to kill Courtney but was thwarted by Simon Keyes in a hot air balloon.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

Honestly, I would say yes given his resources. While he doesn't have Alba or Ga'ran's resources, he nevertheless assassinated the real Di-Jun Huang, killed Jack Cameron who witnessed the crime, attempted to kill the assassin Sirhan Dogen, ruined the life of Simon Keyes, utterly destroyed the house of Lang, attempted to kill Justine Courtney, and caused the country to lose a lot of money, I'd say he meets the standard. There's also the fact it's clear he may have been behind all the murders given that he was the leader of the conspiracy and while Simon manipulated the murders, the body double more or less ordered quite a few of them.

Freudian Excuse?

He's a coward, but certainly not a sympathetic one. He was jealous of the original president's position but he didn't care about the lives he ruined. So I'd say no.

Mitigating Factors?

Well there's the fact he kind of respects his body guard Ethan Rooke, but that's only when he's making the facade of a "nice harmless brave president" and didn't seem to care when Rooke was murdered by Knightley. There's also the fact he ordered Justine Courtney out when Simon Keyes came to him in his hot air balloon to kill him. After shooting down the balloon, he had every intention to kill Courtney and would have if the balloon hadn't killed him.

Verdict?

I'd have to say... maybe? I mean he does a lot of evil with the resources he has, but I'm not too sure if he has enough deeds to qualify or if his body count is high enough.

Cut and link to this thread. We can discuss them here. I think all new examples need to be approved by this thread.

Here is a link to the other effortpost if you need more information on this guy.

He wasn't really denied, at least two people up voted him. I think you were the only person who down voted him.

edited 22nd Sep '16 8:46:59 PM by Klavice

Want the imposter President brought up and denied about two weeks ago? I'd say wait before reproposing.

to Teikun O

Alright, I don't have confidence in this, but I'm gonna throw out Ga'ran's writeup out and see what sticks. Like I said, this was far harder than I thought it would be. @_@ (And yes, HUGE UNMARKED SPOILERS ARE AHEAD. Read with caution, those who wish not to be spoiled)

• Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in is the heartless, self-centered queen of Khura'in and the one responsible for its oppressive legal system. Violently jealous of her sister Amara for possessing spiritual powers and thus held claim to the throne while she was powerless herself, Ga'ran decided to emotionally torture her and take the throne to herself in one fell swoop. She set Amara's residence on fire and made it look like she was murdered by her loving husband, the lawyer Dhurke Sahdmadhi. After murdering the musician Jove Justice and leaving his infant son Apollo to die in the blaze, Ga'ran spirited her sister away, rose to power in Amara's absence and used the anti-lawyer sentiment generated by Dhurke's frameup as an excuse to pass the Defense Culpability Act, a law that would force defense attorneys to suffer the same fate as the accused. This led to a horrifically corrupt legal system responsible for the deaths of thousands while the accused are helpless against the prosecution. Ga'ran meanwhile is shown to care nothing for her family: she emotionally abuses her niece and adopted daughter Rayfa and uses her as a blackmailing tool to keep Amara and her nephew Nahyuta under her thumb, and murders her husband Inga without a second thought after learning that he had plans to kill her. After framing Dhurke for Inga's murder, Ga'ran prosecutes his trial and fully intends to have Apollo, Phoenix, Dhurke, and any citizen who has showed support for Dhurke as a rebel or not executed under the DC Act. And when the evidence points to Amara as Inga's killer, Ga'ran's more than happy to let her take the fall for the crime, and has her shot when Apollo points out that she couldn't have done it. She proceeds to force Nahyuta to fess up to her crime instead, and once she's backed into a corner, Ga'ran rewrites the law and tries to have Phoenix, Apollo, and Nahyuta all executed on the spot before Apollo is able to rend her authority null and void.

This is the best I've got. So, what all goes under spoilers, and what doesn't? And mroe importantly, is there a way to be more concise while not skimping too much? Like I said, Ga'ran is awful and has a laundry list of crimes to her name.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:03:37 PM by FriedWarthog

None of it goes under spoilers. The AA page has all it's spoilers unmarked. People should be forewarned by going on the page that it has unmarked spoilers.

Aside from that, pretty solid writeup! Though didn't she frame Nahyuta Sadhmadhi for a crime too? Also, take a look at my Phantom write up if you'd like help. It's got most of the Phantom's most heinous crimes listed. I did the same for Naraku if you'd like to check out his writeup. If a character has multiple crimes, it's best to list the ones that are the worst.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:18:11 PM by Klavice

Nah, aside from Mr. Burns (who has redeeming qualities and is too ridiculous to take seriously). The closest character to this trope is Russ Cargil from the movie who tried to blow up Springfield and kill hundreds but even he was Played for Laughs.

With the exception of Redd White (and even then, his role in DL 6 was still marked as spoilers) and to an extent, Phantom, literally every CM on the page has their name spoiler marked. Some of their actions are marked with spoilers as well. At the very least, Ga'rans name, and names that indicate to her being the monster should be marked as spoilers.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:21:33 PM by Awesomekid42

Oh, I didn't notice. Thanks for pointing that out. So yes, Ga'ran's name should be spoiled, and maybe spoiler tag the bits that suggest it's a her or queen.

So, I'm hoping to make some changes to the Law & Order page. With that in mind, I forced myself to watch an episode from SVU, a show that I utterly loathe.

Anyway, I had some suspicions about one of the listed characters—whose initial discussion I managed to miss despite having been in the thread at the time—and as it turns out I was right. The entry reads as follows:

Problem is the "thousands of deaths" are Offscreen Villainy. We don't see them. We don't even get much in the way of descriptions of them. Onscreen he's guilty of the attempted murder of Miriam, and of attacking Stabler with a mob. As criminals on SVU, who tend towards Serial Rapist status go, that's pretty much entirely offscreen.

This is not, by the way, the first time that L&O has done this plotline. The villain from Law & Order's third season episode "Night & Fog" was a Nazi collaborator who sent hundreds to die in the camps. Alex Iliescu from the same season's "Securitate" was a Romanian Secret Police officer who was "the fourth man on the right" of Ceausescu, and was responsible for thousands of deaths as well as god knows how many cases of rape and torture. Even if we counted Offscreen Villainy, Serumaga would fail to stand out.

A fair while back, I proposed Idaris John/Melungo the Wizard from Cracked. Like Serumaga, he was the leader of an army of child soldiers who escaped prosecution by coming to a democratic country. Like Serumaga, Idaris was responsible for thousands of offscreen deaths. Like Serumaga, Idaris attacked the main character when he was found out. Unlike Serumaga, Idaris was featured in taped interviews and flashbacks alike that put at least some of his crimes onscreen. He was voted down. If he doesn't count, Serumaga certainly doesn't.

I submit that we cut him post haste.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:28:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

In all fairness, I must note Clown Face proposed, and Serumaga was kept here with overwhelming support.

I'd like to see an argument between the points.

Here is my original post on Idaris John. He was voted down for not doing enough onscreen. Problem is, he does more onscreen than Serumaga ever did. Unless we've suddenly changed policies, Serumaga should not have gone up.

We see at least some of the crimes that Idaris forced children to commit in the flashbacks. We see his army of child soldiers with him in an interview. We see none of this with Serumaga. Since the two episodes are essentially the same plotline, if Idaris is a cut, Serumaga, with less onscreen violence should be—especially given that Serumaga's from a show with a much higher heinous bar.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:35:11 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

In that case, we either cut Serumaga or keep Idaris.

Given that I proposed Idaris, but was convinced by the discussion and my own doubts about how onscreen his actions were, that he did not qualify, I will have to vote that Serumaga, who lacks Idaris' onscreen crimes and is in a show with a stronger heinous standard, should be cut.

I'll also note that if we really have ruled that "an entirely offscreen backstory is suddenly a qualifier when it's relevant to the plot" then Alex Iliescu will have to go up. Which given that his crimes are entirely offscreen I do not want to have happen.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:42:54 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar