Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

Err.... Where was that ever stated?

'cause either she's Older Than She Looks or she's actually a late teen. If anything, I'd say she's at the youngest 15.

In like everything she appears in? The point is that she's a deranged child and part of what she represents is child prostitution, which is why she's dressed like she is.

Jack appeared from seemingly nothing, and it involved Hyouma; the latter tried to kill her, while the former not only saved her life, but violently attacked her would-be killer in self-preservation. Reika has zero knowledge about what she's been dragged into; it's natural that she'd ask Jack if she knows anything, especially since she knows zilch about Jack anyway

Does Jack look like the kind of character who is likely to know more on the subject than the guy Reika's just watched to perform actual magic? Jack looks, at first glance, like a very young girl, while the guy, while an ass, kicked the events into motion; now he's powerless and pretty much obligated to answer or else, he's the first go-to source of information for someone who has no idea about what's going on yet.

Moreso considering Reika is Japanese, and Japan's patriarchal cultural structure means people there are even unconsciously more inclined to believe proper knowledge can come from an older male than a very young female.

Here's some skills from Extella Mats translated. Mostly old stuff, but there is some new.

How can something be rarer on the exact copy of the Earth's history than on Earth itself?

Secret Signature

Heh, thanks. At the time I was operating purely based on her Fate/complete material profile and the Act I: Unbirth story, meaning there was a huge latitude for me to interpret the details of her backstory. If you two are interested, I could share with you the rest of my ideas about her character... though preferably not here, since I doubt non-fans of Jack would be interested in reading lengthy discussions about my headcanon for her. Would a Gmail group chat be suitable?

@Arha & Napoleon: I'd respond now, but it's already way past my bedtime and I'm already exhausted; I'd probably screw it up somehow (or more than usual, from your POV). I'll do it tomorrow when I'm wide awake... assuming that Cheeto Benito doesn't suddenly somehow manage to find a way to agitate Iran so much that they launch an all-out ballistic missile attack on Saudi Arabia's major cities and either kill me or send me into a coma/vegetative state in the process. (I'm still not quite over the scare I got this Thursday when I was waking up; damn low-flying planes!)

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

If it's any consolation we'll probably die of starvation before the year is over.

Did something happen?

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!

Venezuela is in quite the freefall.

Like a fucking rock dropped down a cliff, man.

Oh, so it's that kind of thing.

Your family can still scrape by or you might need help?

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!

The former so far. Thanks.

edited 30th Jan '17 4:35:47 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Okay, I am a bit relieved now.

You're welcome.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!

Huh I'm doing pretty good at least though with some admited worry. Life here in the U.S. is pretty great disregarding the presidency. Thank God I don't have to live back home in Cuba.

@Marq FJA I don't mind a chat. Just send me a message & I'll make sure to respond in kind.

edited 30th Jan '17 4:42:41 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Jack's height is a complicated topic. The 150cm height is something that dates back to the original Apocrypha profiles, long before the novel, back when she had that rather infamously weird legs-for-fucking-years design◊. When the novel happened, Konoe Ototsugu redesigned the characters a bit, and gave her more standard proportions as well as the 134cm height◊, but for some reason they kept the original size in her character profile. Grand Order actually followed suit; her profile having Ototsugu's redesigned height was a later update.

edited 31st Jan '17 2:49:15 AM by ExeloMinish

Obviously Assassin Jack has minor Shapeshifting powers like her Berserker self. Can't change her appearance, but can modify it.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Fake Jack isn't really Berserker Jackie I think?GO Mats do mention that Berserker Jackie is sane(r) too though,so they similar in that regard.I believe the Apocrypha material mentions that she can only act at night and keeps producing the Mist.

Secret Signature

i kinda want fake jack in GO even if he isnt really a heroic spirit

"Have a good day. Have a good week. Have a good month. Have a good year. Have a good life." ~Civia

It's not like Apo Jack is either. She shouldn't even still exist given that she was exorcised.

I only called him Fake cause it's shorter than Strange/Fake anyway.

Secret Signature

The way I read it, it's seems like the version of Jack that was summoned is truly gone forever, but you could summon a new version if you repeat the ritual; she'll just have none of the memories or experiences of the one that contracted with Reika, and will be as much of a blank slate as Reika's Jack was.

@ِArha:

... When someone says "X is Y. X is not Z.", it's only reasonable to assume that what said someone is saying is "X is not Z because s/he is Y".

Citation needed. Act 1's depiction of Jack, which is what I had been talking about and is the one I'm most familiar with, does not agree with this statement of yours.

Wrong. I only argued that she's not truly the Ax-Crazy kind of insane; being Ax-Crazy requires a strong element of unpredictability in what and when would the afflicted person be set off into psychopathic violence. That's not the case with Jack; her Berserk Button is very specific, even if the average stranger would naturally have no idea about it (because, obviously, he doesn't know who she is or what she's like). Lack of knowledge does not constitute unpredictability, but rather persistent inconsistency between multiple incidents (i.e. each one was more or less triggered by someting different from the others, with little to no connection). You want a true Ax-Crazy? Look at The Joker; for all that his many atrocities universally have a theme of (gruesome) comedy, the reasons for him committing them more often than not vary wildly (News flash: It's not always just about making Batman laugh or proving he's Not So Different), and it's always true that nobody is safe from him, even Harley Quinn.

You're the one who's oversimplifying my interpretation of the character so much that you conflate it with something else entirely, and IMO you're also the one who is missing the point of the character.

Jack is medically insane, yes; but only because she was born broken and never received any form of positive treatment in her entire life, let alone moral guidance, instead she only knew a Crapsack World in a Wretched Hive where there was no guarantee that she'd wake up from a night's sleep. Nothing indicates that her brokenness can't be mended into something close to a functioning normal person, unlike Kirei or Ryuunosuke, who were clearly shown to be lost causes (though for different reasons).

Jack has the blood of (persumably) innocent prostitutes on her hands, yes; but she didn't choose to be born with a psychological obsession with (possibly to the point of dependence on) finding a woman to unilaterally designate as a mother figure. She didn't choose to be so mentally unstable that she involuntarily goes into violent psychotic fits whenever such a woman off-handedly blew her off. For God's sake, the girl kept apologizing to those women whenever she comes across their corpses again; this indicates that when she's not in one of those psychotic breaks, she at least recognizes that attacking "Mother" (perhaps even anyone by default) is morally wrong and she feels remorse for it.

@Napoleon:

Said guy looked like a completely normal man in street clothes up until he tried to perform actual magic. And Jack is clearly not a normal being, what with her manifesting from nowhere in answer to Reika's wish (Jack completely ignored Hyouma's ritual up until the dying Reika expressed a desire to live), managing to save Reika's life simply by sewing up her fatal wounds with threads and techniques that are obviously crude and outdated simply by looking at the messy-looking end result (Reika herself felt that "it was dubious whether the wound had really been closed"; she's not even medically trained, and she could tell that much from an initial glance). Combine that with the natural animosity and wariness towards Hyouma, as well as reasonable suspicion that he could exploit her lack of knowledge about the whole subject when she demands information; it would be natural that she'd at least get what she can out of her savior first, then move on to interrogating Hyouma and hope that what she did get from said saivor would help her spot any potential lies from him.

Of course, that's assuming that he can talk; I'm suspecting that the reason he did not have his jaw removed in the manga wasn't because of squeamishness about such gruesomeness (we've seen worse mutiliation in manga before, and it's not like they can't simply avoid showing the exposed flesh), but rather to simply allow for him to be interrogated to begin with. Heck, the way Jack was acting is quite different from her much more stoic-like manner in Act I; yet another example of Characterization Marches On between the original depiction and the one(s) in adaptations of the source material.

And what exactly gave you the indication that Reika actually subscribed to said culture? In her own words, she spent her entire life "simply being swept along". That doesn't sound like someone who believes in the culture around them.

... And I don't know about you, but I don't think even the Joker is insane enough to trust his would-be murderer to ask him/her first if he were in such a situation (assuming that he didn't kill said would-be murderer in the process of avoiding being murdered by him/her, that is).

... Do I dare ask what happened? As much as we butt heads over things, and as heatedly and bitterly those become, and as much as you seem to be becoming a Broken Pedestal to me at times compared to the old days when we first made the Negima fanfic thread, I do not hate you personally nor do I want to see you suffer for no good reason.

... I'm going to need your gmail address first (and Black Sun Nocturne's, if s/he wants to join in). Don't look at me, it's how Gmail chat works; I need to either have you in my Contacts list or manually add your addresses in the Chat window to open a group chat for all of us together. Just PM it to me.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Loli Jack can't be summoned in Apo timeline anymore, that's it.

You neglect to explain why that is the only valid interpretation of what happened.

edited 31st Jan '17 11:17:10 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Because the author said so??

Like Jack was a wraith that got exorcised. The end.

Not seeing the problem here

Let me say this first. You actually can steer her in a better direction. She prefers Good alignment Masters according to her GO mats profile, but those are the kinds of Masters who won't let her run wild or indulge her sickness. Since Gudao is a nice guy and a good mom there are even My Room scenes with them just cuddling.

However, that doesn't change what she is, especially not in Apocrypha where she has a very bad mom who is a very bad role model. She's a dissociated, insane little girl who kills casually, wants to crawl inside your womb whether you have one or not and is easily influenced because she's largely unconcerned with things. There's even a joke scene during a GO event (Halloween 2016, I think) where the party is trying to think of who would be a suitable healer and their mental image of Jack goes 'Hm? You're in pain? Well, I don't really understand, so I'll just start cutting.'

That's the kind of thing I mean when I say she is not suited for explaining things. She doesn't understand the details of things and she doesn't care because it's not important to her.

Also, she can't be summoned anymore because she was a wraith and Jeanne exorcised her so hard that she can never appear again. Atalanta wasn't very happy about that because she loves kids. She took the last fragments of the wraith into herself and they sent her crazy.

Wait, she prefers good masters?

I mean, they're probably going to ignore the "Jackie can't be summoned anymore" if they ever decide to do something with her. I mean, 'cause she does kind of exist in Grand Order. Like, they've retconned shit before.

Fate/stay night: "Archer can't trace Excalibur"
Fate/EXTRA: "No, he can. He just needs to be in UBW"
Fate/Extella: "Lol, he can do it outside of UBW"

I mean, that may not be the best example, but yeah.

edited 31st Jan '17 11:35:51 AM by BlackSunNocturne