Lost in Space
Correct. The problem with subjectives is that they are inherently based on opinion, with the result that someone who disagrees is likely to start Conversation In The Main Page or get in an Edit War over them. These things are highly detrimental to the purpose of the wiki.
To back up a step, while clearly we want tropers to enjoy themselves while troping and contribute witty, entertaining writeups and examples, the wiki is about cataloguing tropes and their relationships with works. It's not about having fun just for the sake of having fun.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Note that The Scrappy isn't exactly subjective. It's an objective trope grounded in subjectivity: the point of the trope is that the fanbase dislikes the character, not whether the character is good or not - if the fanbase as a whole has a history of disliking the character, then that's a solid fact.
Also, yeah, I would hope we're not phasing out subjective tropes completely. Not ideal, in my opinion.
edited 25th Sep '10 2:34:25 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
There has never been a subjective trope that does not lead to natter if used on a work's page. That's not ideal.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Geomancer
Some subjective tropes can stay on the page. Usually it's minor ones though.
You got some dirt on you. Here's some more!
^^ So we're left with two options that aren't ideal. Sticky situation, isn't it?
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Not really. At the first sign of trouble, the subjective goes. 'Trouble' being any edit warring or natter attraction.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Geomancer
Yeah some subjectives can stay on some pages.
You got some dirt on you. Here's some more!
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
Well, some tropes are more subjective than others. If it's widely felt that a movie was snubbed by awards judges, and important critics are loudly fulminating about it, it's easier to justify including Award Snub on the works page.
For that matter, there are a handful of tropes listed as being subjective that seem pretty clear-cut to me, with no more borderlineage than any other trope.
Others (like So Bad Its Horrible, to take an extreme case) are pretty much only going to lead to tears in the Main namespace.
The child is father to the man —Oedipus
Geomancer
Big Rigs Over The Road Racing is an acceptable target for that since it was known as an Obvious Beta alpha.
edited 28th Sep '10 12:16:40 PM by Marioguy128
You got some dirt on you. Here's some more!
^^^^ I disagree, mostly because I strongly disagree with the idea that subjective tropes aren't as valid as objective tropes, and I think it's our duty to catalogue all tropes, not just the one we're more comfortable in dealing with.
edited 28th Sep '10 12:22:36 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Lost in Space
Complete Monster might be a trope, but So Bad Its Horrible is not. It's an audience reaction.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Are you saying that anything that's not a storytelling trope invoked by the writer should be flagged as subjective, since the new banner emphasizes that it's not a trope?
edited 28th Sep '10 1:04:42 PM by SpellBlade
Lost in Space
Audience Reaction Tropes are inherently subjective. I thought that was obvious. When it's about how you react to the work, not the work itself, it's subjective. Is there something unclear about this?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The majority of the tropes listed under that index are missing the banner, which implies that you are wrong and they are actual tropes.
edited 28th Sep '10 2:10:48 PM by SpellBlade
No, it implies that the banners are imperfectly applied.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
So, should I apply the banners to anything that isn't a storytelling trope? Like say, anything in this index?
edited 28th Sep '10 2:30:49 PM by SpellBlade
I'll do a thing to apply the banner to everything on the Fan-Speak and Audience Reaction Tropes indexen. That would cover the '...it sucks' items.
edited 28th Sep '10 2:39:03 PM by FastEddie
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Wow, just saw the new banner.
Woo, that's bad. Really bad.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
I don't think it should be on everything on the Fan-Speak index. Filler is subjective now? Media Watchdog? Missing Episode? Not so Fast, Bucko!? Half the tropes that are on there are on there just because they're named after terms commonly used to describe them by fandom.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Lost in Space
Fan Speak might be taking it a bit too far.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Caissa's DeathAngel
Agreed, Fan Speak does not need this banner.
Would you kill your best friend, can you save yourself?
I'll buy that. Not all fan-speak is natter bait. Audience reaction 'tropes' are, though.
The objective of this banner placing is to move natter magnets off the works pages. One fan-speak term may not be a natter magnet, and another might be.
Maybe the best way to go is to say that anything on the subjectives list gets the 'not a trope, it's an opinion' banner, and if a page doesn't have the banner but needs one, it should go on the subjectives list.
edited 28th Sep '10 4:22:46 PM by FastEddie
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
You're defining "subjective" as "natter bait?"
Even worse, you're defining "natter bait" as "not a trope?"
Really?
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Crown Description:
The other thing about subjectives is that some will have such strong/close to indisputable consensus that the line can be blurred to those who don't know the difference. Is anyone really trying to dissent Jar Jar Binks as The Scrappy for example? The German language version of The Scrappy is even called "Der Jar Jar"!
When such a huge proportion of the fandom, and indeed the neutral media, see the character like that, it would be foolish to delete the trope from the page.
The problem, of course, is that such clear cut cases are (a) a Godsend and (b) needle in a haystack rare.
Would you kill your best friend, can you save yourself?